Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6858|132 and Bush

(Reuters) wrote:

Washington set up an emergency fund to support U.S. lenders during the global credit crisis. With signs of stress in Europe now, the European Central Bank and those of Britain, Japan and Switzerland joined forces on Thursday to reintroduce three-month dollar liquidity operations in the fourth quarter.

The coordinated action boosted the euro and global stocks, prompting market speculation that European policymakers may take bold steps to deal with a crisis that is now threatening Italy, the euro zone's third-biggest economy.

After rising 2 percent on Thursday, world stocks rallied in Asia on Friday. The MSCI world stock index rose 0.6 percent in Asia to a one-week high, marking its fourth straight daily gain. The euro held on to Thursday's strong gains.

The central bank move was "exactly what is needed" since the world has entered a dangerous phase of the crisis, said International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde. She repeated her call for European countries to recapitalize their banks.

Geithner holds talks with EU ministers in Poland and will propose that the European Financial Stability Fund, the 440 billion euro fund set up in May 2010, be used in a similar way to an emergency loan fund created by the U.S. Treasury and the Fed in 2008 to thaw frozen credit markets, sources said.

"Geithner will probably insist on the importance of leverage to have more funds to ringfence the big Europeans, Italy and Spain, and to find a solution for Greece," an EU official told Reuters ahead of the meeting in Wroclaw.

The treasury secretary is expected to expound the model of the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility (TALF) that U.S. financial authorities used to jump-start the asset-backed securities market.

Under TALF, the Treasury offered up to $20 billion in credit protection to the New York Federal Reserve Bank, where Geithner was then president, allowing it lend up to $200 billion. In return, the New York Fed took in asset-backed securities as collateral with a haircut.

TALF was credited with restarting frozen U.S. markets for securities backed by car, student and small business loans and leases. By taking in paper that had no other buyers at the time, the Fed acted as market maker. No losses were reported on the program.

While it remains unclear whether the same mechanism could be used to leverage Europe's bailout funds, one analyst said EFSF money could be used to guarantee a portion of potential losses on euro zone sovereign debt bought by the ECB, providing more purchasing clout than if it just bought the bonds in the secondary market with money on hand.

"It is possible to leverage the EFSF so as to expand its headline capacity to support sovereign bonds, for example through the use of partial guarantees against first losses," said Sony Kapoor, managing director of think tank Re-Define.

One difficulty is that leveraging a fund that is underwritten by guarantees from euro zone member states could increase liabilities across the board, putting pressure on the triple-A credit rating of countries such as France.

ANOTHER NO FOR EURO BONDS

Leveraging the EFSF would be a radical new approach in the crisis at a time when financial markets are fixated on the possibility of the euro zone introducing jointly issued bonds, even though such a move is strongly opposed by Germany and unlikely to happen any time soon.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel again bluntly rejected such bonds as a solution to the crisis on Thursday, saying that "collectivizing debts" would not solve the problem.

"In order to bring about common interest rates, you need similar competitiveness levels, similar budget situations. You don't get them by collectivizing debts," she said.

The European Union's top economic official meanwhile said he expected international lenders to be able to recommend by the end of the month releasing a vital next tranche of aid to Greece, warding off the threat of an imminent default.

While that may keep Greece afloat until it gets a second bailout package from the euro zone, the finance minister said the country would remain mired in recession through 2012, the fourth year in a row, a contraction that is only likely to fuel popular outrage at the austerity drive.

Lagarde was more cautious on Greece's progress, saying Athens had partially implemented reforms under its EU/IMF bailout program but must make more progress to secure release of the next 8 million euros in emergency loans.

"If there has been no implementation, we don't pay," she warned.

On a conference call with Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou on Wednesday, Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy voiced their support for keeping Greece in the euro zone and continuing financial assistance provided it sticks strictly to austerity measures to meet its fiscal targets.

EU Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said he now expected an EU/ECB/IMF "troika" of inspectors to complete their review of Greece's fiscal targets by the end of the month.
This all seems so very familiar. Extending credit pretty much means extending the debt in Southern Europe. How does this address solvency?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6931|Canberra, AUS
...

Just let them default and stop jumping onto the Titanic.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6858|132 and Bush

I'm sure lots of people would be content watching southern Europe burn.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6725

Kmar wrote:

I'm sure lots of people would be content watching southern Europe burn.
I would post a pic of Michael Caine or Heath Ledger, but I'm to tired.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6754

Doctor Strangelove wrote:

Kmar wrote:

I'm sure lots of people would be content watching southern Europe burn.
I would post a pic of Michael Caine or Heath Ledger, but I'm to tired.
pussy. you'd never outlast lowing in a debate.

he's a master debater . . .
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6858|132 and Bush

13urnzz wrote:

he's a master debater . . .
A cunning linguist. I saw that Austin Powers also.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6973

Kmar wrote:

I'm sure lots of people would be content watching southern Europe burn.
They will just default on their debts and creditors will go QQs.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
It would be a ton easier to let them default. Germany's problem is their banks hold huge amounts of Greek bonds - from well before this actually blew up. Stupid German banks have been lending to Greece for decades.

So really Germany isnn't so much bailing out Greece as bailing out its own banks with Greece as the middle-man, all the while Germany gets to pose as the 'good european'.

The best thing would still be to let Greece fold and for the Germans to bail out their own banks directly.
Fuck Israel
rdx-fx
...
+955|6848
From Umair Haque - Harvard Business Review
  • when you don't reinvent institutions at a time of systemic failure, the problem doesn't just magically disappear.
  • when you prop up the institutions causing the crisis, instead of reinventing them, the crisis will deepen.
  • when dysfunctional institutions prop one another up, prosperity's a house of cards. Crisis becomes stagnation.
  • when propping up failed institutions has drained your resources, you've turned a crisis into a catastrophe.
  • the longer it takes you to see a crisis for what it truly is, the disproportionately worse it's likely to get.
  • when people who are prisoners of the paradigm that caused the crisis are in charge of fixing it, bet on...more crisis.



Bankers and politicians trying to fix a systemically broken western economy,
makes as much sense as hiring a bunch of pyromaniacs for your local fire department.

Sure, they know all about fires - but their hearts really aren't into putting them out.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6776|Πάϊ
What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
ƒ³
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5615|London, England

oug wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
The world will finally hit bottom and we can rebuild.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6973

oug wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
Makes people and governments rethink about financing terrible debt and maybe should balance their goddamn budget and not hedge their bets on growth to pay off debts
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
rdx-fx
...
+955|6848

oug wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
  • Banks holding the insurance on those debts will be forced to pay up (Credit Default Swap is the name for it, no?)
  • Western world will get a wakeup call that the extravagant living & entitlement of the last 60 years is unsustainable.
  • Everybody will figure out that the modern banking industry is based on a shell game of false confidence, 'everybody else is doing it, so we did too!, and reams of paperwork with the sole purpose of obfuscating the above shenanigans



If your public expenditures are greater than your public income, you cannot keep doing this forever.
Pay more taxes, or live with fewer public benefits. Pick one.

Economists, politicians, and bankers can obfuscate with terminology all they want.
To use an analogy; You cannot keep paying your rent with your credit card - it will catch up to you.

Modern banking system is a high-stakes game of musical chairs. 100:1 leveraging works fine, until the music stops, and someone is left standing there, holding the bill for the bullshit fiat play-money the bankers made up.

And the concept of working 20 years, then getting state-backed welfare & medical for the next 40+ years is ludicrous.
With a stagnant population growth, it is simply impossible for the current work force to sustain that ratio.


The last 60 years was a golden age of living well beyond our means (in the West, at least). 
Time for a major correction.
If we're lucky, we'll all manage to still have a (smaller) roof over our heads, food, and jobs that pay enough to cover essentials.  Perhaps with a few dollars every month for fun.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6858|132 and Bush

Cybargs wrote:

Kmar wrote:

I'm sure lots of people would be content watching southern Europe burn.
They will just default on their debts and creditors will go QQs.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6858|132 and Bush

Jay wrote:

oug wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
The world will finally hit bottom and we can rebuild.
Really? You think that would be the bottom, and rebuilding would start? You're not that naive.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
PrivateVendetta
I DEMAND XMAS THEME
+704|6448|Roma
If Greece leaves Euro, creditors will wonder what will stop Italy, Spain, Portugal etc. from being forced out as well. Euro gets fucked, the rest of the western world won't be immune.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/29388/stopped%20scrolling%21.png
rdx-fx
...
+955|6848
"like watching a group of nursery school children who've stolen a Boeing 747 and are now flipping all the switches trying to get it to take off" - Philip Greenspun

Quote is in reference to another topic, but fits neatly here.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5615|London, England

Kmar wrote:

Jay wrote:

oug wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
The world will finally hit bottom and we can rebuild.
Really? You think that would be the bottom, and rebuilding would start? You're not that naive.
I'm not. We do at some point need to let deflation happen or we're just going to be treading water indefinitely. Bernanke and Geithner have been doing their damndest to force inflation and keep prices on an even-to-upward tilt. I mean, I understand the logic, because deflation would give cause for the moneyed class to pull out of investments, but at least let the housing market crater so it can finally clear inventory. Housing prices are still too high compared to the average persons income due to the bubble but they refuse to let that market find it's own equilibrium. If the market starts to clear, new homes will begin to be built again and many of the unemployed will get back to work. The options are to either do that, or assume 9% unemployment to be the new norm as those construction workers either adapt, or refuse and milk the system.

Let's be real here, most of the construction workers I've known do it because they can't do anything else. It's the only industry where people with a high school diploma (or not) can still make a pretty damn good wage. They aren't going to start going to college now, and most of them have too much pride to accept the menial work they are qualified for outside of their industry. That unemployment market is not going to clear itself.

Last edited by Jay (2011-09-17 13:18:23)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
rdx-fx
...
+955|6848

Jay wrote:

[...] because deflation would give cause for the moneyed class to pull out of investments, but at least let the housing market crater so it can finally clear inventory. Housing prices are still too high compared to the average persons income due to the bubble but they refuse to let that market find it's own equilibrium.
Inmates are running the asylum.
Drowning the bottom 90% of wage earners, to keep the top 10% afloat. Brilliant fiscal policy.

Jay wrote:

most of them have too much pride to accept the menial work they are qualified for outside of their industry.
This could be extended to the vast majority of the Western workforce.
Right as soon as the bottom drops out of the global market for people qualified to sit at a desk and paperfuck their way through middle management.

Everybody wants a nice, easy, desk job, in an air conditioned office, making $75k/yr for scheduling meetings, sucking down coffee & donuts, forwarding emails, and browsing the internet all day. (And they only want to do it for a maximum of 30 hours a day in Italy and France...)

Manual Labor?
I think that's my Mexican gardener's name.
Says so right on his Social Security card, Manuel La'Bor
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX

rdx-fx wrote:

From Umair Haque - Harvard Business Review
  • when you don't reinvent institutions at a time of systemic failure, the problem doesn't just magically disappear.
  • when you prop up the institutions causing the crisis, instead of reinventing them, the crisis will deepen.
  • when dysfunctional institutions prop one another up, prosperity's a house of cards. Crisis becomes stagnation.
  • when propping up failed institutions has drained your resources, you've turned a crisis into a catastrophe.
  • the longer it takes you to see a crisis for what it truly is, the disproportionately worse it's likely to get.
  • when people who are prisoners of the paradigm that caused the crisis are in charge of fixing it, bet on...more crisis.



Bankers and politicians trying to fix a systemically broken western economy,
makes as much sense as hiring a bunch of pyromaniacs for your local fire department.

Sure, they know all about fires - but their hearts really aren't into putting them out.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." - Einstein
Fuck Israel
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

oug wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
The world will finally hit bottom and we can rebuild.
America would go over the brink too, worth remembering.
Fuck Israel
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6754

America is over the brink. the fact that a Democrat, er, Republican, er, tea-bagger is leading the GOP should tell you

invest in gold, hoard your water, stock up on ammo, and for fuck sack turn off your television. get off the grid. go full ATG and don't trust any elected officials, ever, anywhere, ever again.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6908|USA

oug wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if Greece - and subsequently all the other countries that are on the brink - is allowed to default?
Any chance they might learn that the govt. can not support a welfare state when EVERYONE is standing around with their hands held out and NO ONE wants to go to work?

Was in Greece recently, and got into the discussion with a Greek who lives in both Greece and the US.  We talked about this very issue. When asked what is the reason behind Greece's financial crisis I got a very simple answer... "Because Greeks are fuckin' lazy, they don't want to work, they just want the govt. to continue giving them everything."

Gotta love socialism


"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom."

" What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else."

"When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that dear friend, is about the end of any nation.

"You cannot multipy wealth by dividing it."


Dr. Adrian Rogers
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
LOL US is still more socialist than many 'socialist' nations.

Just look at the size of the military compared to most other nations - China is close I guess but they are fairly socialist.
Fuck Israel
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6908|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

LOL US is still more socialist than many 'socialist' nations.

Just look at the size of the military compared to most other nations - China is close I guess but they are fairly socialist.
Sorry, Dilbert, I am not going to get into your delusional argument that working for a living is being on welfare. It is a desperate argument to lump people that actually work and produce, be it for the people, or private, in the same group as those that leech off of them.

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