FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6410|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

So because you disagree, you're just going to go OT and bash Bush instead? Makes perfect sense.
No, just pointing out your arguments apply more to the US collapse than they do to the Eurocrisis - which has absolutely nothing to do wth Keynesian theory.
The Eurocrisis is the result of expansionary monetary policies, used to fund government expenditures into the economies of the nations involved, resulting in deficits nobody worried about until the cumulative debt became unmanageable.

Nope. Has nothing to do with Keynesian theory. Nothing at all. Just move along. Nothing to see here...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
JahManRed
wank
+646|6627|IRELAND

Anyone who thinks the Eurozone will survive should watch this.  Got to admire his honesty tho.


Seams the governments predict the markets reaction before any decision is made. If you watch the new, "the markets" are mentioned every 5 fucking minutes. Everyone panders to them. Governments wont make moves to improve their citizens way of life because "the markets" will react badly.
But when you realise that "the markets" are basically made up of people like the guy in the video and they profit from instability and recession you realise the absurd disgusting situation the world is in.

And whats worse is our governments are all slaves to these profiteers who put money above all else.
Human misery, these guys don't give a fuck. They engineered the crises and now they profit from it. Somethings wrong with the world.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5177|Sydney
Yeah I posted that in DST chat the other day.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6105|eXtreme to the maX
'Markets' are really made up of banks, depositorrs, mortgage holders, shareholders - mostly large institutions, pensions funds etc, and leeches like this guy.

The merchant banks, Goldman Sachs etc really are a cancer. They pump bubbles, booms, busts, recessions, crashes and so on - its how they make money. Stability is unprofitable for them.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6715
Bailouts will always fail no matter what. Running a huge fucking deficit isn't going to help your economy in any way. Why should traders give a fuck? Their job is to make money from investments, and it shows when they walk away from a country means you guys are fucking too much shit up.

Overcoming the Greek Debt Crisis
    Beginning in April 2010, the Greek government faced a sovereign debt crisis, which has led to their debt to become unbearable, as it stands today at $468.8 (147% of GDP) Billion (Eurostat). The debt was a result of reckless government expenditure against very little government revenue, breaking the rules of the government budget constraint. It is necessary for the Greek government to balance its budget, cutting back government expenditure while increasing tax revenue in order to bring the country out of massive debt. If the country does not do so, the government may have to default on its debts, causing a flight of foreign and local capital from the Greek economy due to a lack of financial confidence within the economy.
     One cause of the crisis was the large increase of Greek government debt increasing during the late 2000s, as Greek government debt went from 96% of the GDP in 2006, to 116% in 2010(Shostak). One of the major factors for the reason behind Greece's large increase in government debt is that the government betted on its ability to repay their debts based on their economic growth rate. From 2007 to 2008, Greece's economy increased by 4.2% of its GDP (Eurostat), however it came to a recession when it shrunk by -0.3% from 2008-2009.
    The Greek government broke the government budget constraint on a large amount, where their current deficit stands at -$34.5 Billion (10.5% of GDP) in 2010. This massive spending and breaking the government budget constraint is the lead cause to the Greek sovereign debt crisis. Raising the interest rates to 17% (Cochrane and Kashyap), also proves unviable as the government would further be unable to pay off such a large amount of interest to the already large amount of debt. The interest rate also led the debt to rise from 127.1% to 141.8% (2009-2010) in just one year (Eurostat), thus further making the debt more difficult to restructure.
    In accordance to the government budget constraint, it is vital that the Greek government to make its deficit of -10.5% (Eurostat) to a surplus and increase economic growth if it wishes to repay its debts. Borrowing money from either the European Central Bank (ECB) or the International Monterey Fund (IMF) is a temporary solution to a permanent issue, as the government will need to pay back its loans from such funds. Austerity measures must be taken in favour of a tax increase, as raising taxes drives away incentives to invest capital and wealth creation within a nation (Shostak).
    The Greek government expenditure currently stand at 49.5% of its GDP while its revenue is only at 39.1% of GDP (Eurostat), which demonstrates that the government participates in an extremely active role in the economy of the nation. Such expenditure hinders wealth creation, as governments are not wealth generating entities, but merely re-allocate resources from the wealth creators and inhibits economic growth (Shostak).
    In order to solve the sovereign debt crisis, it is vital that the Greek government take massive austerity measures in order to prevent a further increase in debt and generate economic growth, the S&P index claims that a 50% "haircut" in the amount of debt may advert Greece to default on its debt (Manasse). An option to the Greek government is to privatize public assets such as telecom companies, energy industries and infrastructure in order to shave off expenditure from public resources and increase economic growth through means of privatization.
    Another method is to lower the interest rates on the debt in order to prevent further increase in public debt and to prevent a government default on its debts (Manasse). Defaulting on their debts will have a wider affect not only on the Greek economy, but the economies of Spain, Italy, Ireland and other Eurozone nations with large amounts of debt (Wyplosz). Another issue with the government budget is the unreliability and accusations of data manipulation (Manasse), it is necessary to balance the books and investigate any claims in order to reassure investor confidence within the economy.
    The Greek government has continued to violate the budget constraint by increasing its interest rates, sustaining a large government deficit and borrowing money from Eurozone governments while failing to keep control their national debt (Wyplosz). The benefit of violating a government constraint is increase growth in the infrastructure sector of the economy due to the use of public works, however the costs of intergenerational equity and crowding out effects outweighs the rate of return for infrastructure investments.
    Intergenerational equity traps are the deadliest as governments need to borrow money to pay off old debt, which does not absolve the issue but adds more money onto the already large debt held by the government and forcing future generations to pay off the economic irresponsibility of the current generation (Cochrane).  The necessity to pay off these debts usually come in the form of tax hike, which inhibits wealth creation as there are less incentives to invest in your country and a capital flight will occur where most business will start to move overseas, thus losing a large amount of taxable income (Cochrane). 
    In conclusion, the only method to overcome any sovereign debt issue is to keep a balanced budget where the government has the ability to pay off the debts in the future instead of borrowing money to pay off old debts. Austerity measures must be taken in order to prevent further addition to government debt and create incentives to generate wealth. Privatization of non-essential government assets is a necessary measure to cut down on expenditure while maintaining a relatively low tax level to encourage business and foreign direct investments to your economy. Relying on future growth to pay off debts will also create issues, as we saw Greece's inability to handle their future debts while betting on a higher growth rate to pay off their debts.
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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5357|London, England

JahManRed wrote:

Anyone who thinks the Eurozone will survive should watch this.  Got to admire his honesty tho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC19fEqR … ture=share

Seams the governments predict the markets reaction before any decision is made. If you watch the new, "the markets" are mentioned every 5 fucking minutes. Everyone panders to them. Governments wont make moves to improve their citizens way of life because "the markets" will react badly.
But when you realise that "the markets" are basically made up of people like the guy in the video and they profit from instability and recession you realise the absurd disgusting situation the world is in.

And whats worse is our governments are all slaves to these profiteers who put money above all else.
Human misery, these guys don't give a fuck. They engineered the crises and now they profit from it. Somethings wrong with the world.
I think you're missing the point. The market matters because they are the ones the government is borrowing from when they float bonds. If the market feels that a government is on the brink of default, they will stop buying that governments debt and the government will quickly (or in the case of debtor nations like the US and Greece, instantly) run out of money. The 'market' didn't create Greece's problem, Greece did.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5998|...
^ exactly.

Beyond that claiming that the eurozone has no hope of surviving the crisis is unfounded. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the eurozone were to collapse? The banking crisis of the last few years would pale in comparison. No, the euro as a currency and the eurozone area aren't going to disappear any time soon. What will happen is that the EU and eurozone will undergo some extensive restructuring. This may manifest itself in a new government for the eurozone exclusively as has been proposed by the French and the Germans.

It sounds like the best idea so far because much of the crisis and how it's being handled can be blamed on broken fundementals of the EU government, it's a better idea to start anew rather than building upon something that evidently doesn't work. There are many countries within the EU that do not share the euro and having them present in the talks is nothing more than a hindrance to the actually relevant parties involved. Either Europe, more specifically the eurozone, is going to work towards a functional federal government of sorts and will become involved in the restructuring of incompetent national governments directly, or these governments will be booted out of the union.

By now everyone must've realised that throwing money at these governments obviously isn't working and pooling the debt like with eurobonds would be a sort of punishment to those countries that did manage their debt levels and gov expenditure properly. That would do nothing but allow debt-ridden states to drag the rest of the union down to their level.
inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5357|London, England
Yeah, the solution to government mismanagement is to create yet another layer of government
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5998|...
I see it more as saying bon voyage to the EU as an institution and with that being given the opportunity to start over again.

I don't see any other way really, there are many problems with the EU, one of the worst being the fact that it's effectively an oligarchy.
inane little opines
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6105|eXtreme to the maX
The EU will sail merrrily on, that cushy bureaucracy isn't going to sign itself out of existence.
It'll be in a slightly different form, that is all.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6580|SE London

13rin wrote:

Well, I thought it was doomed from the start.  Don't most of these states have 'national healthcare'?
What a stupid statement.

You know that there is no state with national healthcare that spends as much on healthcare per capita as the US? You just don't have any idea what you're talking about.

It's all down to the savings you make with having truly nationised schemes. Where the US loses out is by doing a sort of half and half approach - which costs loads.




The problems the Euro is having are to do with a few states that have fucked themselves over by being idiots. But the Eurozone countries only have themselves to blame - countries like Greece didn't meet the criteria for Euro membership, but got allowed in anyway. That was pretty stupid.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6715
Doesn't matter if countries have social health care, large ass militaries, fully funded dildo industry, you need to keep a government budget constraint. Greeks manipulated the data on their national debt, hedged their loans against a 4% growth. When that growth stopped they got fucked.

edit: as stated before, greece and italy were brought into the Eurozone because of political reasons, mainly to deter them from turning communist.

Last edited by Cybargs (2011-09-29 22:55:42)

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