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Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6319|Moscow, Russia

BALTINS wrote:

Why was the cold war Americas fault?
it takes at least two sides to fight a war.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5955|'Murka

Cold War wasn't just the US vs the USSR, Dilbert. Read a history book.

Afghanistan: pretty sure Saudi Arabia didn't aid, abet, and shelter AQ leadership and training camps that led to 9/11. You're confusing nationality with culpability.

Back OT, please.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
BALTINS
ಠ_ಠ
+37|6030|Latvia

Shahter wrote:

BALTINS wrote:

Why was the cold war Americas fault?
it takes at least two sides to fight a war.
I asked because I wondered whether he meant it was exclusively Americas fault.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX

rdx-fx wrote:

The only reason China isn't going to take over as "lone superpower" is that their economic growth is, essentially, financed akin to buying a house with your credit cards.  A real world recession will hurt the West - it could potentially sink the Chinese economy.
Who does China borrow from? Thats right, no-one.

Who does America borrow from? Oh wait, its China.

The OP is so flawed getting "back on topic" is ridiculous.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|4580|Massachusetts, USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

The only reason China isn't going to take over as "lone superpower" is that their economic growth is, essentially, financed akin to buying a house with your credit cards.  A real world recession will hurt the West - it could potentially sink the Chinese economy.
Who does China borrow from? Thats right, no-one.

Who does America borrow from? Oh wait, its China.

The OP is so flawed getting "back on topic" is ridiculous.
Same old rhetoric.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,282|6260

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

The only reason China isn't going to take over as "lone superpower" is that their economic growth is, essentially, financed akin to buying a house with your credit cards.  A real world recession will hurt the West - it could potentially sink the Chinese economy.
Who does China borrow from? Thats right, no-one.

Who does America borrow from? Oh wait, its China.

The OP is so flawed getting "back on topic" is ridiculous.
China doesn't have to borrow money, they can just take everything from their citizens.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5130

Dilbert_X wrote:

Who does China borrow from? Thats right, no-one.

Who does America borrow from? Oh wait, its China.
China holds only 9% of our debt.

    * Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
    * Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
    * Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
    * Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
    * Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
    * Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
    * Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
    * State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
    * Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
    * United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
    * Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
    * State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
    * Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
    * U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
    * China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
    * The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
    * Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)
http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns … ong-kong-1

43% is directly owned by private citizens, local and state governments or appendages of the Federal government. The rest is owned either by U.S. allies or corporate interest.  China hardly owns us.

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-08-16 09:30:41)

Cybargs
Moderated
+2,282|6260
Macbeth makes more sense than trollbert. What is this.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5130

Cybargs wrote:

Macbeth makes more sense than trollbert. What is this.
wat

I always make sense \o/
jord
Member
+2,382|6222|The North, beyond the wall.
No you don't kitten fister.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5955|'Murka

Macbeth wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Who does China borrow from? Thats right, no-one.

Who does America borrow from? Oh wait, its China.
China holds only 9% of our debt.

    * Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
    * Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
    * Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
    * Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
    * Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
    * Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
    * Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
    * State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
    * Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
    * United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
    * Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
    * State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
    * Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
    * U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
    * China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
    * The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
    * Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)
http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns … ong-kong-1

43% is directly owned by private citizens, local and state governments or appendages of the Federal government. The rest is owned either by U.S. allies or corporate interest.  China hardly owns us.
Facts are irrelevant.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6211

Dilbert_X wrote:

Vietnam - Can't have been a big apology.
Wars forgotten.  They wanna love Americans long time now.  Big business has been in the country for ages now.  Only ones bitter to some degree are only the refugees here who lost practically everything.  But the bitterness is not toward the US.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6135

rdx-fx wrote:

The only reason China isn't going to take over as "lone superpower" is that their economic growth is, essentially, financed akin to buying a house with your credit cards.  A real world recession will hurt the West - it could potentially sink the Chinese economy.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Who does China borrow from? Thats right, no-one.

Who does America borrow from? Oh wait, its China.

The OP is so flawed getting "back on topic" is ridiculous.
Who borrows from who is not the point.

The US debt is 8% owned by China. It's a significant amount of money, but they don't 'own the US' via debt leverage.

China's growth is dependent on continued growth, their currency being artificially undervalued, and their labor force cheaper than the West can hope to compete with.  They are racing their own growth to build a sustainable infrastructure, ignoring quality, sustainability, workforce morale, and environmental concerns.

But if you want to sit in a corner and argue with yourself over whatever shallow talking-point phantasm you've conjured up, that's your call.  Israel vs Palestine thread is elsewhere.

Jay may explain the financial angle to you, once he's unbanned.
FEOS seems to have patience for arguing with you.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6135

Cybargs wrote:

Macbeth makes more sense than trollbert. What is this.
Macbeth is at least (usually) sincere in his commentary.

Dilbert just likes to get under people's skin.
Information and ideas are secondary points to him, apparently.
The argument and maneuvering seem to be his focus.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX

Macbeth wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Who does China borrow from? Thats right, no-one.

Who does America borrow from? Oh wait, its China.
China holds only 9% of our debt.

    * Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
    * Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
    * Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
    * Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
    * Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
    * Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
    * Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
    * State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
    * Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
    * United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
    * Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
    * State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
    * Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
    * U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
    * China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
    * The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
    * Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)
http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns … ong-kong-1

43% is directly owned by private citizens, local and state governments or appendages of the Federal government. The rest is owned either by U.S. allies or corporate interest.  China hardly owns us.
So China is your biggest foreign loan shark. GG.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX

rdx-fx wrote:

China's growth is dependent on continued growth
Wow, thank you for that incredible insight.
The only reason China isn't going to take over as "lone superpower" is that their economic growth is, essentially, financed akin to buying a house with your credit cards.
Still waiting for you to explain that comment bearing in mind:
China is not in debt, and certainly not up to their neck in debt they can barely make the interest payments on.
Jay may explain the financial angle to you, once he's unbanned.
Jay has even less of a clue than you do TBH, he even takes Milton Friedman seriously.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-08-17 02:10:34)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|5868|New Haven, CT
Why don't we instigate a war with China using a contrived reason that places the blame on them ala Gulf of Tonkin, blow some of their ships up, and then force them to forgive our debt as part of their reparations?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX

nukchebi0 wrote:

Why don't we instigate a war with China using a contrived reason that places the blame on them ala Gulf of Tonkin, blow some of their ships up, and then force them to forgive our debt as part of their reparations?
And bomb their infrastructure to hell and then make them pay you inflated fees to rebuild it for them?
That and take their rare earth elements, obviously.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5955|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay has even less of a clue than you do TBH, he even takes Milton Friedman seriously.
and you take Krugman seriously, so you're even.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5543|...
Dilbert I don't understand what you're trying to argue here. The economic relation between the west and China is one of mutual dependency - whether or not China is swimming in debt is irrelevant. The fact that we are swimming in debt is the problem, for both us and China. If we fail, China fails because it will have a huge stockpile of cheap goods with no buyers. Their economic growth is completely dependent on our prosperity, if western investors and buyers stop looking to China it is game over.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-08-17 07:56:13)

inane little opines
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6277|Cambridge, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Why don't we instigate a war with China using a contrived reason that places the blame on them ala Gulf of Tonkin, blow some of their ships up, and then force them to forgive our debt as part of their reparations?
And bomb their infrastructure to hell and then make them pay you inflated fees to rebuild it for them?
That and take their rare earth elements, obviously.
Cant tell if srs.

You would lose and even if you won then your economy would be even worse than it is.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-08-17 08:31:07)

rdx-fx
...
+955|6135

Shocking wrote:

Dilbert I don't understand what you're trying to argue here. The economic relation between the west and China is one of mutual dependency - whether or not China is swimming in debt is irrelevant. The fact that we are swimming in debt is the problem, for both us and China. If we fail, China fails because it will have a huge stockpile of cheap goods with no buyers. Their economic growth is completely dependent on our prosperity, if western investors and buyers stop looking to China it is game over.
Edit: To build on Shocking's post, and thereby respond to Dilbore

And, to further that, If their worker pay scale increases faster than their infrastructure they are screwed.

Their primary competitive angle is their ability to mass manufacture inexpensive goods cheaply.
Their low worker pay, their artificially valued currency, their disregard for patent & royalties, their using of marginal base materials, their disregard of environmental controls - all of these factors are geared to serve that primary advantage.

If the growth of their middle class, and the growth of worker standards of living, forces an increase in worker pay - they lose part of that one primary advantage.


Hence my original premise. A plateau in economic growth combined with a continued growth in standard of living for the Chinese worker equals an erosion of China's competitive advantage.

Constant growth results in continued growth, stagnation results in decline.
In other words.. like financing a house on high-interest credit cards; As long as you keep making the minimum payments, everything is fine.  Miss a month, and the whole pile starts to become unmanageable quite quickly.

The bobble-head talking-point about "China owns the mortgage on the US" bullshit is just that - bobble headed bullshit for the gnews anchors to spoon feed the plebes.


The US problem is a different animal completely: unsustainable spending, entitlement mentality, uneducated workforce, and the boomers living a lifestyle that essentially spent 4 generations worth of money in one generation.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2011-08-17 11:41:02)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5955|'Murka

To further the point on how the two economies are wound together:

If the US economy tanks and the dollar falls, over a trillion dollars of investments currently being held by China drops in value...dramatically. Conversely, if the US economy does well, China gets a better return on its investment. So it's in both parties' interest not to engage in economic warfare.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5543|...
I enjoy all the globalisation and such but at the same time it's a bit dangerous tbh. If it ever goes wrong...
inane little opines
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5018|Ventura, California
nah no globalization plz
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.

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