im familiar with the chicago school of sociology, too, and i'm largely in line with it
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay wrote:
I view anyone not making a genuine effort to get off the dole as a thief. By my definition of thievery, what percentage would you say qualify, uzi?
We do of course have a collective way of ameliorating the hardships of individuals and families – a government safety net that is meant to save the poor from spiralling down all the way to destitution. But its response to the economic emergency of the last few years has been spotty at best. The food stamp program has responded to the crisis fairly well, to the point where it now reaches about 37 million people, up about 30% from pre-recession levels. But welfare – the traditional last resort for the down-and-out until it was "reformed" in 1996 – only expanded by about 6% in the first two years of the recession.
The difference between the two programs? There is a right to food stamps. You go to the office and, if you meet the statutory definition of need, they help you. For welfare, the street-level bureaucrats can, pretty much at their own discretion, just say no.
Take the case of Kristen and Joe Parente, Delaware residents who had always imagined that people turned to the government for help only if "they didn't want to work". Their troubles began well before the recession, when Joe, a fourth-generation pipe-fitter, sustained a back injury that left him unfit for even light lifting. He fell into a profound depression for several months, then rallied to ace a state-sponsored retraining course in computer repairs – only to find that those skills are no longer in demand. The obvious fallback was disability benefits, but – catch-22 – when Joe applied he was told he could not qualify without presenting a recent MRI scan. This would cost $800 to $900, which the Parentes do not have; nor has Joe, unlike the rest of the family, been able to qualify for Medicaid.
When they married as teenagers, the plan had been for Kristen to stay home with the children. But with Joe out of action and three children to support by the middle of this decade, Kristen went out and got waitressing jobs, ending up, in 2008, in a "pretty fancy place on the water". Then the recession struck and she was laid off.
Kristen is bright, pretty, and to judge from her command of her own small kitchen, probably capable of holding down a dozen tables with precision and grace. In the past she'd always been able to land a new job within days; now there was nothing. Like 44% of laid-off people at the time, she failed to meet the fiendishly complex and sometimes arbitrary eligibility requirements for unemployment benefits. Their car started falling apart.
So the Parentes turned to what remains of welfare – TANF, or Temporary Assistance to Needy Families. TANF does not offer straightforward cash support like Aid to Families with Dependent Children, which it replaced in 1996. It's an income supplementation program for working parents, and it was based on the sunny assumption that there would always be plenty of jobs for those enterprising enough to get them.
After Kristen applied, nothing happened for six weeks – no money, no phone calls returned. At school, the Parentes' seven-year-old's class was asked to write out what wish they would present to a genie, should a genie appear. Brianna's wish was for her mother to find a job because there was nothing to eat in the house, an aspiration that her teacher deemed too disturbing to be posted on the wall with the other children's requests.
When the Parentes finally got into "the system" and began receiving food stamps and some cash assistance, they discovered why some recipients have taken to calling TANF "Torture and Abuse of Needy Families." From the start, the TANF experience was "humiliating", Kristen says. The caseworkers "treat you like a bum. They act like every dollar you get is coming out of their own paychecks".
The Parentes discovered that they were each expected to apply for 40 jobs a week, although their car was on its last legs and no money was offered for gas, tolls, or babysitting. In addition, Kristen had to drive 35 miles a day to attend "job readiness" classes offered by a private company called Arbor, which, she says, were "frankly a joke".
Nationally, according to Kaaryn Gustafson of the University of Connecticut Law School, "applying for welfare is a lot like being booked by the police". There may be a mug shot, fingerprinting, and lengthy interrogations as to one's children's true paternity. The ostensible goal is to prevent welfare fraud, but the psychological impact is to turn poverty itself into a kind of crime.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I remember it was interesting, but I also remember punching a few holes in it...
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
like every grand, holistic theory... you can't systematize life with 100% accuracy/efficiency. but a lot of cogent - and still relevant - points.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Yes, uzi, I clicked the link. So what? They were told to apply for jobs (40 is rather high) to get them off welfare. That's deplorable? Being on public assistance should be an unpleasant experience.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
people on the dole here have to satisfy the office that they are actually seeking jobs.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
People on the dole here have cousins or aunts working in the dole office. Good luck getting on welfare as a white person though. It's next to impossible.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
People 'on the dole' in Florida are now getting drug tested before they get their checks... I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that one.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
As long as drugs are illegal... meh.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
so you've gone from calling most people on the dole "thieves" to admitting there are flaws with the system? same as brin? but then you'd consider most of our inner-city poor as "thieves" because they are involved in a system with inherent flaws? a-okay. confusing gymnastics here. i don't buy justice's line that most inner city rioters have extensive petty-crime histories and are used to a life of criminality and amoral behaviour. they're in a rut, lets not kick them whilst we're down from our relative comfort when we don't know shit. speak to me at least with some statistics or stfu with this middle-class conservative finger-pointing bollocks.Jay wrote:
People on the dole here have cousins or aunts working in the dole office. Good luck getting on welfare as a white person though. It's next to impossible.
Last edited by Uzique (2011-08-10 11:20:33)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
from aforementioned articled:13rin wrote:
People 'on the dole' in Florida are now getting drug tested before they get their checks... I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that one.
In what has become a familiar pattern, the government defunds services that might help the poor while ramping up law enforcement. Shut down public housing, then make it a crime to be homeless. Generate no public-sector jobs, then penalise people for falling into debt. The experience of the poor, and especially poor people of colour, comes to resemble that of a rat in a cage scrambling to avoid erratically administered electric shocks. And if you should try to escape this nightmare reality into a brief, drug-induced high, it's "gotcha" all over again, because that of course is illegal too.
One result is our staggering level of incarceration, the highest in the world. Today, exactly the same number of Americans – 2.3 million – reside in prison as in public housing. And what public housing remains has become ever more prison-like, with random police sweeps and, in a growing number of cities, proposed drug tests for residents. The safety net, or what remains of it, has been transformed into a dragnet.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
No uzi, you don't seem capable of understanding that I view lifelong dolers as thieves.
Requiring people to look for a job is easily gotten around. You know damn well that there is systemic abuse, and that the abusers make up the vast majority. It's free money for the lazy, and the lazy will always take advantage of programs designed with the best of intentions. It's just human nature.
Requiring people to look for a job is easily gotten around. You know damn well that there is systemic abuse, and that the abusers make up the vast majority. It's free money for the lazy, and the lazy will always take advantage of programs designed with the best of intentions. It's just human nature.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
You seem to forget that I was neither born, nor raised, as a member of the middle class. I have a whole helluva lot more experience at the bottom than you do.Uzique wrote:
so you've gone from calling most people on the dole "thieves" to admitting there are flaws with the system? same as brin? but then you'd consider most of our inner-city poor as "thieves" because they are involved in a system with inherent flaws? a-okay. confusing gymnastics here. i don't buy justice's line that most inner city rioters have extensive petty-crime histories and are used to a life of criminality and amoral behaviour. they're in a rut, lets not kick them whilst we're down from our relative comfort when we don't know shit. speak to me at least with some statistics or stfu with this middle-class conservative finger-pointing bollocks.Jay wrote:
People on the dole here have cousins or aunts working in the dole office. Good luck getting on welfare as a white person though. It's next to impossible.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Actually Jay they do investigate the jobs you've supposedly applied for and revoke your payments if they find out you didn't apply for the job. I know it gets stricter after 3 months but I was only on it for that long and it was 3 jobs per week which had to be listed with full details as well as having to spend time working on a CV/ going through local recruitment agencys and other shit. I'm not saying theere aren't ways to cheat, of course there is and always will be...
Fuck the lot of ya' i'm oliver twist.
I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
no, "systemic abusers" do not "make up the vast majority". FAR from it. our welfare system works for many people and is functional, effective and useful. i do not think AT ALL that the "vast majority" or even > 50% of public welfare spending is wasted. i think you're vastly overinflating those figures and i would love - again - to see some statistics or actual evidence behind this crass anti-poor bollocks. you're one degree away from justice's "most people in these areas have to thieve to get nice things" statement. it's ludicrous.Jay wrote:
No uzi, you don't seem capable of understanding that I view lifelong dolers as thieves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBAXWz-8arw
Requiring people to look for a job is easily gotten around. You know damn well that there is systemic abuse, and that the abusers make up the vast majority. It's free money for the lazy, and the lazy will always take advantage of programs designed with the best of intentions. It's just human nature.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
you've also admitted many times "in my experience only" so lets not extrapolate your personal anecdotes to two entire nation's welfare receivers...Jay wrote:
You seem to forget that I was neither born, nor raised, as a member of the middle class. I have a whole helluva lot more experience at the bottom than you do.Uzique wrote:
so you've gone from calling most people on the dole "thieves" to admitting there are flaws with the system? same as brin? but then you'd consider most of our inner-city poor as "thieves" because they are involved in a system with inherent flaws? a-okay. confusing gymnastics here. i don't buy justice's line that most inner city rioters have extensive petty-crime histories and are used to a life of criminality and amoral behaviour. they're in a rut, lets not kick them whilst we're down from our relative comfort when we don't know shit. speak to me at least with some statistics or stfu with this middle-class conservative finger-pointing bollocks.Jay wrote:
People on the dole here have cousins or aunts working in the dole office. Good luck getting on welfare as a white person though. It's next to impossible.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
At least my opinions are based on something tangible rather than the 'crying in his cup over the plight of the poor' article you posted here. Jesus Christ, no wonder your worldview is so childish if you actually read trash like that.Uzique wrote:
you've also admitted many times "in my experience only" so lets not extrapolate your personal anecdotes to two entire nation's welfare receivers...Jay wrote:
You seem to forget that I was neither born, nor raised, as a member of the middle class. I have a whole helluva lot more experience at the bottom than you do.Uzique wrote:
so you've gone from calling most people on the dole "thieves" to admitting there are flaws with the system? same as brin? but then you'd consider most of our inner-city poor as "thieves" because they are involved in a system with inherent flaws? a-okay. confusing gymnastics here. i don't buy justice's line that most inner city rioters have extensive petty-crime histories and are used to a life of criminality and amoral behaviour. they're in a rut, lets not kick them whilst we're down from our relative comfort when we don't know shit. speak to me at least with some statistics or stfu with this middle-class conservative finger-pointing bollocks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
music from the grand era of british rioting and social discontent is still a prescient soundtrack... haha
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
"take with a pinch of salt". i've been reading all the comment articles all day (from far-right to far-left, from liberal crybabies to reactionary revanchists... i have dual-monitors at work and lots of spare time). nice one, though.Jay wrote:
At least my opinions are based on something tangible rather than the 'crying in his cup over the plight of the poor' article you posted here. Jesus Christ, no wonder your worldview is so childish if you actually read trash like that.Uzique wrote:
you've also admitted many times "in my experience only" so lets not extrapolate your personal anecdotes to two entire nation's welfare receivers...Jay wrote:
You seem to forget that I was neither born, nor raised, as a member of the middle class. I have a whole helluva lot more experience at the bottom than you do.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Well, since you've clearly taken up the devils advocate role just to argue, whats your own personal opinion then?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
i don't have one. i think it's hugely complicated. i think it's a mix of everything. most of all i think it's a case of reckless out of order youths with literally nothing to lose (and lets face it, little chance of any punishment) riding a group-hysteria adrenaline high and playing a hyper-real version of grand theft auto in their own neighbourhoods. i don't think it's overtly political, i don't think it's overtly socio-economic (or a direct consequence of the cuts/austerity measures), i don't think it's the signs of a degraded feral underclass of sub-humans... i think it's a big mash of everything. so many isolated cases and so many stories from so many places right now that it's really starting to look absurd when the papers try to impose some wider grand narrative on all these events. i really don't know. "playing devil's advocate"... hardly. i'm just saying it's a bit much to start calling tens of thousands of poor people "thieves", or to call for them to be shot, or to wrongly accuse the shot drug-dealer guy of getting into a fire fight and "deserving it". just trying to be a reasonable neutral voice amidst a lot of politically-biased and personally-slung bullshit.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
hahahahaha
The majority of people on welfare are white. Why when you get trapped somewhere do you make it a race issue? Thats twice ITT.Jay wrote:
People on the dole here have cousins or aunts working in the dole office. Good luck getting on welfare as a white person though. It's next to impossible.