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2011-08-03 04:48:15
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6972|St. Andrews / Oslo

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Will just add something to that ... if you have a tax at 80% like Jenspms dad you make so much money that whatever you have left is enough to buy a small African country!
But you're still giving 80 cents of every dollar you earn to the state. It doesn't matter how much you have left over...it's still only twenty percent of what you earned for your efforts.

That's essentially the state saying, "Twenty percent of your pay is enough for you. You don't need any more than that...but I do."

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.

We have similar upper marginal tax rates in this country (once you take into account all taxes paid). Yet the current administration has the audacity to say that those income brackets "aren't being asked to pay anything" (he actually said that in a speech during this "debt crisis"). It's fucking astonishing, tbh. The top 1% of wage earners pay 24% of the income taxes collected. The top 20% pay 70% of them.
Yes ... but like you pointed out earlier this isn't just income tax we are talking about ... it sounds steep and I actually doubt his dad pay that much tax ...
probably, I bet he's just moaning.

edit- did some maths, it's more in the low 70s.

Last edited by Jenspm (2011-08-03 04:52:47)

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2011-08-03 05:19:52
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Jenspm wrote:

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:


But you're still giving 80 cents of every dollar you earn to the state. It doesn't matter how much you have left over...it's still only twenty percent of what you earned for your efforts.

That's essentially the state saying, "Twenty percent of your pay is enough for you. You don't need any more than that...but I do."

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.

We have similar upper marginal tax rates in this country (once you take into account all taxes paid). Yet the current administration has the audacity to say that those income brackets "aren't being asked to pay anything" (he actually said that in a speech during this "debt crisis"). It's fucking astonishing, tbh. The top 1% of wage earners pay 24% of the income taxes collected. The top 20% pay 70% of them.
Yes ... but like you pointed out earlier this isn't just income tax we are talking about ... it sounds steep and I actually doubt his dad pay that much tax ...
probably, I bet he's just moaning.

edit- did some maths, it's more in the low 70s.
That's absurd. I would just retire.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-03 05:32:53
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6972|St. Andrews / Oslo

Jay wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Varegg wrote:


Yes ... but like you pointed out earlier this isn't just income tax we are talking about ... it sounds steep and I actually doubt his dad pay that much tax ...
probably, I bet he's just moaning.

edit- did some maths, it's more in the low 70s.
That's absurd. I would just retire.
I know you would. But that's partly my point, early retirement isn't as big a 'thing' here as it seems to be in the US, I think.
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2011-08-03 05:42:10
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Don't get me wrong, the time I spent in Germany I was genuinely impressed and surprised and envious. I compared life as I saw it there in the villages with life in the states. I saw a much more care free, easy going life style there that I was attracted to. It is just with our society, I do not see how that could happen in the states realistically.
Hundreds of years of 'every man grab all he can' compared with an effective social democracy its easy to see it wouldn't be a simple switch.
Lol. We just don't have the correct political indoctrination dontchaknow.
Which is a shame, lowing at least has a hankering for the socialst good life.

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-08-03 05:45:47)

Fuck Israel
2011-08-03 05:58:34
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6239|...
Maximum income tax in Norway is 54.3% according to wiki. Over here it's 52%. I guess your dad just adds up all the other taxes with that one. Ah well, what can you do? Our governments are enormous, so they need a lot of tax revenue. I do agree that these rates are excessive. IMO the maximum should be somewhere around 40-45%.
inane little opines
2011-08-03 06:00:06
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956
Australian tax rates are pretty reasonable imo.
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2011-08-03 06:06:32
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6972|St. Andrews / Oslo

Shocking wrote:

Maximum income tax in Norway is 54.3% according to wiki. Over here it's 52%. I guess your dad just adds up all the other taxes with that one.
Yeah, that's what I said. Mainly wealth/capital/whateveryouwanttocallit tax.
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2011-08-03 06:16:09
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


Hundreds of years of 'every man grab all he can' compared with an effective social democracy its easy to see it wouldn't be a simple switch.
Lol. We just don't have the correct political indoctrination dontchaknow.
Which is a shame, lowing at least has a hankering for the socialst good life.

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
I can not lie, as I said, I was impressed and envious of what I saw in Germany. However, in all fairness , I was still just a visitor,  grass always appears greener on the other side.  I am sure it is not without its problems and frustrations.
2011-08-03 06:19:43
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney

Cybargs wrote:

Australian tax rates are pretty reasonable imo.
I agree. I have a mate who complains about paying too much tax, but he earns a lot and will have the house he bought less than a year ago paid off inside ten years by himself. His girlfriend just bought her own house.

edit: he's on about $75k p/a plus company car and phone, his gf is a tax account.

Last edited by Jaekus (2011-08-03 06:22:12)

2011-08-03 06:29:39
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


Hundreds of years of 'every man grab all he can' compared with an effective social democracy its easy to see it wouldn't be a simple switch.
Lol. We just don't have the correct political indoctrination dontchaknow.
Which is a shame, lowing at least has a hankering for the socialst good life.

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
lowing craves order rather than the seeming chaos of America. German society is still largely based on the old Prussian military state where 'a place for everything, and everything in its place' is the rule of the day. I doubt very much he was envious of the social programs, but rather the hive-like discipline.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-03 07:27:15
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:


Lol. We just don't have the correct political indoctrination dontchaknow.
Which is a shame, lowing at least has a hankering for the socialst good life.

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
I can not lie, as I said, I was impressed and envious of what I saw in Germany. However, in all fairness , I was still just a visitor,  grass always appears greener on the other side.  I am sure it is not without its problems and frustrations.
There are problems and frustration yes ... some different than yours and some quite the same
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-03 07:36:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Lol. We just don't have the correct political indoctrination dontchaknow.
Which is a shame, lowing at least has a hankering for the socialst good life.

I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
I can not lie, as I said, I was impressed and envious of what I saw in Germany. However, in all fairness , I was still just a visitor,  grass always appears greener on the other side.  I am sure it is not without its problems and frustrations.
There are problems and frustration yes ... some different than yours and some quite the same
What's life like for those that hold opinions or lifestyle choices that differ from 'the accepted norm'?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-03 07:55:27
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956

Jay wrote:

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:


I can not lie, as I said, I was impressed and envious of what I saw in Germany. However, in all fairness , I was still just a visitor,  grass always appears greener on the other side.  I am sure it is not without its problems and frustrations.
There are problems and frustration yes ... some different than yours and some quite the same
What's life like for those that hold opinions or lifestyle choices that differ from 'the accepted norm'?
final solution
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2011-08-03 17:23:29
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:


Lol. We just don't have the correct political indoctrination dontchaknow.
Which is a shame, lowing at least has a hankering for the socialst good life.

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
lowing craves order rather than the seeming chaos of America. German society is still largely based on the old Prussian military state where 'a place for everything, and everything in its place' is the rule of the day. I doubt very much he was envious of the social programs, but rather the hive-like discipline.
Actually I was envious of the seemingly care free existence I witnessed as I walked through the villiages we stopped in. Everyone and I mean without exception was friendly. I was set back by the contrast of all I saw and experienced and what happened there 60 years before. I am also envious of the history. I suppose they take it for granted, but for me to sit in a restaurant that was built in 1600 and still read the carvings in the posts from those that were there 300 years ago was quite a thrill for me.
2011-08-03 23:35:56
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

Jay wrote:

Varegg wrote:

There are problems and frustration yes ... some different than yours and some quite the same
What's life like for those that hold opinions or lifestyle choices that differ from 'the accepted norm'?
I think you have to specify that since I believe we have different views on what differ from what the accepted norm is ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-03 23:41:59
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Actually I was envious of the seemingly care free existence I witnessed as I walked through the villiages we stopped in. Everyone and I mean without exception was friendly. I was set back by the contrast of all I saw and experienced and what happened there 60 years before. I am also envious of the history. I suppose they take it for granted, but for me to sit in a restaurant that was built in 1600 and still read the carvings in the posts from those that were there 300 years ago was quite a thrill for me.
That's mostly the Germans in the south that can be described like that, those in the north have a much colder attitude ... not unfriendly but not as welcoming as those in the south ... your other point about the history and the feeling you get wandering along in small medieval villages is an experience to remember ... Germany, France, Italy, Czech Rep. etc etc are my favorites in that category
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-04 01:46:01
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:


I can not lie, as I said, I was impressed and envious of what I saw in Germany. However, in all fairness , I was still just a visitor,  grass always appears greener on the other side.  I am sure it is not without its problems and frustrations.
There are problems and frustration yes ... some different than yours and some quite the same
What's life like for those that hold opinions or lifestyle choices that differ from 'the accepted norm'?
They get to be Fuhrer.

Otherwise its like anywhere else, its not communist so people can do what they want.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-04 03:21:52
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I was envious of the seemingly care free existence I witnessed as I walked through the villiages we stopped in. Everyone and I mean without exception was friendly. I was set back by the contrast of all I saw and experienced and what happened there 60 years before. I am also envious of the history. I suppose they take it for granted, but for me to sit in a restaurant that was built in 1600 and still read the carvings in the posts from those that were there 300 years ago was quite a thrill for me.
That's mostly the Germans in the south that can be described like that, those in the north have a much colder attitude ... not unfriendly but not as welcoming as those in the south ... your other point about the history and the feeling you get wandering along in small medieval villages is an experience to remember ... Germany, France, Italy, Czech Rep. etc etc are my favorites in that category
Well we were in the southern part of Germany, no kidding, I was on sensory overload as walked through the villages in the Austrian and Bavarian Alps. Kinda ruined me because because all destinations in my life are measured by that trip. So far the only ones that have come close are Alaska and Yosemite Park in California. If there is any such thing as luck it belongs to the people that live in Alps of Bavaria and Austria.
2011-08-04 03:26:42
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?
Why would you choose not to earn what you're worth? The problem is that the government thinks it's OK to take so much of what its citizens earn by their labor and then redistribute it.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
The point being, Dilbert, when you're giving up 80 cents of every dollar you earn, you're doing BOTH.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-04 03:38:46
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Varegg wrote:

Jay wrote:

Varegg wrote:

There are problems and frustration yes ... some different than yours and some quite the same
What's life like for those that hold opinions or lifestyle choices that differ from 'the accepted norm'?
I think you have to specify that since I believe we have different views on what differ from what the accepted norm is ...
How would an American style conservative be treated? Would he be socially ostracized? His opinions marginalized? Would people attempt to re-educate him?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-04 04:55:11
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6239|...

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?
Why would you choose not to earn what you're worth? The problem is that the government thinks it's OK to take so much of what its citizens earn by their labor and then redistribute it.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
The point being, Dilbert, when you're giving up 80 cents of every dollar you earn, you're doing BOTH.
You have to understand the mentality as well, people are a lot less individualistic here than they are in the US. It's for solidarity if anything, granted, some of the systems have gone over the top. I believe that most of the ultra rich use loopholes to avoid paying too many taxes, but anyone else is stuck with the top brackets - which is pretty much everyone as you get taxed 52% if your salary is >55k euros($80k)/year. That's hardly "very rich" imo.

For retirees it's unfair, people who get less than 33k euros ($50k) a year their taxes are reduced significantly compared to when they were in the workforce earning the same amount of money. From 41.95% to 24%, and for people earning <18k ($30k) a year it's decreased from 33% to 15.1%. It stays the same in retirement for anyone who gets more than 33k a year.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-08-04 04:56:02)

inane little opines
2011-08-04 05:33:38
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

Jay wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Jay wrote:


What's life like for those that hold opinions or lifestyle choices that differ from 'the accepted norm'?
I think you have to specify that since I believe we have different views on what differ from what the accepted norm is ...
How would an American style conservative be treated? Would he be socially ostracized? His opinions marginalized? Would people attempt to re-educate him?
Americans are quite well received in Norway ... we are long time friends and allies and set aside petty differences like politics when we meet

With that said I have to two Americans in the group of people I see on a regular basis, maybe not close friends but I see them both on occasion ... they live in Norway and have no plans going back to the US, they also used to be Republicans and at the risk of sounding like a condecending douche both of them told me they "woke up" after being in Norway as to how Americans are looking at them from the outside ... they are no longer Republicans, they voted and cheered for Obama last election!

Jay wrote:

Would people attempt to re-educate him?
Nope
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-04 05:42:00
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I just don't see how people can NOT take issue with that.
I guess they're free to vote in another govt or leave the country if they don't like it.
Or just not earn to the point they pay that much tax - that they choose to do so would indicate its not a problem wouldn't it?
Why would you choose not to earn what you're worth? The problem is that the government thinks it's OK to take so much of what its citizens earn by their labor and then redistribute it.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I guess some people like to give back to society, some do it by giving up their time, others by working and paying a lot of tax.
To each their own.
The point being, Dilbert, when you're giving up 80 cents of every dollar you earn, you're doing BOTH.
The point being, if you don't like it you're free to elect another govt or try another country.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-04 07:00:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Varegg wrote:

Jay wrote:

Varegg wrote:


I think you have to specify that since I believe we have different views on what differ from what the accepted norm is ...
How would an American style conservative be treated? Would he be socially ostracized? His opinions marginalized? Would people attempt to re-educate him?
Americans are quite well received in Norway ... we are long time friends and allies and set aside petty differences like politics when we meet

With that said I have to two Americans in the group of people I see on a regular basis, maybe not close friends but I see them both on occasion ... they live in Norway and have no plans going back to the US, they also used to be Republicans and at the risk of sounding like a condecending douche both of them told me they "woke up" after being in Norway as to how Americans are looking at them from the outside ... they are no longer Republicans, they voted and cheered for Obama last election!

Jay wrote:

Would people attempt to re-educate him?
Nope
I wasn't talking about Americans in Norway though, but Norwegians themselves. As Shocking said, there is a lot less individuality because of the pressure to conform. Political views might be liberal, but you behave like social conservatives towards anyone that deviates. This is what appeals to lowing, the closedminded push for conformity.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-04 07:42:22
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

I wouldn't call it closedminded conformity ... hm, maybe rather a common sense or understanding of how you are one of many and how what's good for the majority is good for you in general terms without being marxist even though it may sound that way ... we somehow have no problems being more equal in a broader perspective than Americans are, perhaps more united in a way thinking that the worst off should have it better to make a better society in total.

I'm looking for a couple words/phrases here to sum it up that I can't seem to remember ... maybe a hint of conformity ... we feel it's okay to contribute for the common good, we see that we mostly get value for the taxes we pay.

If we are socially conservative towards those that deviates I believe depends on how they deviate ... extreme greed is not okay, if you make money off someone elses misfortune is not well received as one example ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................

 

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