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2011-08-01 04:15:46
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

How big were America's oil deposits?

Did any long-term good come out of them or were they burnt up to no useful purpose?

Germany has no oil, and a similar system to Norway, they seem to be doing OK.
No, Germany has more debt per capita than we do and their economic growth rate over the past two decades has averaged half of our own. I'd say they're treading water on the way to a long decline actually.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-01 04:27:35
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
You don't necessarily need 'growth' if your economy is already doing fine, and achieving growth through population expansion, consumption and imports instead of productivity improvement and exports is not that clever either.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-01 04:37:01
Varegg
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+2,206|7050|Nårvei

Jay wrote:

A population of 4.9 million people sitting on the worlds fifth largest oil deposits? An African-style Kleptocracy couldn't even fuck up that advantage. Norway is simply lucky, and it has fuckall to do with their economic system.
We are lucky yes but that doesn't mean we don't need a sound economy with control functions to prevent the massive amount of corruption going on in other western states that bleeds the population ...

In addition to that we simply can't just use our oil profits and pump that directly into the budget like you seem to think, that would totally ruin the rest of the economy ... hence why we have the pension fund.

Oil or no oil, keeping a balanced budget and having good economic regulations is what makes the Norwegian economy so strong ... I'm talking about the priciples here Jay, something you seem to fail to understand seeing as you keep nagging about the same over and over again ...

Macbeth wrote:

You did a fine job of squeezing in a lot of platitudes, inaccuracies, and misunderstandings into one post there, Varegg. Every sentence is just wrong.
Kinda explains why we are doing just fine and you're not ... so why don't you counter my previous post with the fatcs about a sound economy?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-01 04:51:31
Varegg
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Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

How big were America's oil deposits?

Did any long-term good come out of them or were they burnt up to no useful purpose?

Germany has no oil, and a similar system to Norway, they seem to be doing OK.
No, Germany has more debt per capita than we do and their economic growth rate over the past two decades has averaged half of our own. I'd say they're treading water on the way to a long decline actually.
And why do they have that kind of debt? ... they have steadily been rebuilding an entire country that previously was East Germany, so when you compare the last two decades it really isn't comparable because of the underlying reasons ... try again!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-01 04:52:01
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5826

It's hard to talk facts with someone who thinks that greed and corporations are the main reason the U.S. isn't doing well. It shows a great ignorance of the history of this country.
2011-08-01 04:56:59
Varegg
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Macbeth wrote:

It's hard to talk facts with someone who thinks that greed and corporations are the main reason the U.S. isn't doing well. It shows a great ignorance of the history of this country.
Where did I say it was the main reason? ... it's one of many reasons I listed in that post and there are more than those listed, it's hard to talk facts with people that choose to be blind ... but keep pounding your chest as to how great a nation you are while it lasts with a set of politicians nobody deserves, they'd rather let your nation fall apart than admit they're on the wrong track!

It doesn't matter to them because they've set already ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-01 05:07:12
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5826

I don't pound my chest to how great my nation is.

And you are right. You didn't just name greed and corporations as the problem in your post but also politicians. Groundbreaking analysis there. A round of applause is due. You deserve a Noble prize for that one.

"and lobbyist man. They are messing things up. Don't be blind dude"
2011-08-01 05:25:23
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

I don't pound my chest to how great my nation is.

And you are right. You didn't just name greed and corporations as the problem in your post but also politicians. Groundbreaking analysis there. A round of applause is due. You deserve a Noble prize for that one.

"and lobbyist man. They are messing things up. Don't be blind dude"
Watch out or he'll ban you for disagreeing with him.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-01 07:51:23
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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Macbeth wrote:

I don't pound my chest to how great my nation is.

And you are right. You didn't just name greed and corporations as the problem in your post but also politicians. Groundbreaking analysis there. A round of applause is due. You deserve a Noble prize for that one.

"and lobbyist man. They are messing things up. Don't be blind dude"
Trying to riddicule my post doesn't help the fact that your lack of arguing against my post with nothing but poorly displayed sarcasm makes you come off as an idiot ... argue against the post and not the poster. What you are doing now is considered flaming!

Jay wrote:

Watch out or he'll ban you for disagreeing with him.
I never have and never will ban for such reasons, being a smartass however showing disrespect for the staff might just get you a ban ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-01 08:01:46
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5826

Varegg wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

I don't pound my chest to how great my nation is.

And you are right. You didn't just name greed and corporations as the problem in your post but also politicians. Groundbreaking analysis there. A round of applause is due. You deserve a Noble prize for that one.

"and lobbyist man. They are messing things up. Don't be blind dude"
Trying to riddicule my post doesn't help the fact that your lack of arguing against my post with nothing but poorly displayed sarcasm makes you come off as an idiot ... argue against the post and not the poster. What you are doing now is considered flaming!

Jay wrote:

Watch out or he'll ban you for disagreeing with him.
I never have and never will ban for such reasons, being a smartass however showing disrespect for the staff might just get you a ban ...
Oh god.

The reason I ridiculed your post instead of going line by line debunking everything is because it was such a mess of misinformed myopic crap that I would have to give you a lesson on the political, social, and economic history of the United States in the last 150 years. It screamed 'not knowing what you are talking about' but being damn sure you were.

That's why I ridiculed it as a high school stoner thought rather than intelligent analysis.

If you want I could send you a text book form my U.S. history class from last year. That will be a good start. You could read that and try again or we can stick to posting stuff we genuinely know about. Otherwise you were way, way in left field.
2011-08-01 08:12:56
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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It worked fine the first 150 years, why did it not work as fine the last 50 years?

It was merely a few lines to react to not a fucking history book Mac ... how hard can that be if I was so blatantly wrong and ridiculous?

And this is not something I alone have come up with, more and more Americans are not very impressed with the development the last decades ... are you satisfied with how things are now?

So explain to me Macbeth how 30.000 exworkers from Enron that have lost their work, pension etc etc are proof of a system that is the best in the world?

Explain how your politicians brilliantly caused the last huge economic crisis and how that is proof of a system that is the best in the world?

With proper economic regulation you would effictively minimize the chances of Ken Lays, Skillingtons and the likes of them causing so much trouble before it is too late ... the system you have now grow such people in large numbers ... you think Enron was alone scamming the people of California?

You think the energy sector is the only one doing that?

You gotta wake the fuck up Macbeth!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-01 08:31:28
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5826

BECAUSE SHIT WAS HORRIBLE BEFORE. If you knew American history you would know it wasn't rainbows and lollipops and thing are much better now. In every category. Reconstruction era was a complete disaster. The Gilded Age was terrible. Corporations in this country are pussy cats compared to what they used to be. Government corruption today is a joke compared to the corruption of the past. American society isn't going through nearly the amount of social fragmentation that occured in the past. In you are going to invoke the history of the U.S. to make a point that modern U.S. is borked, you should know the history of the U.S. better.

Everything is better. Not as great as the 90's, and could be better, yes. Falling apart and in need or complete revision? Hell no. The U.S. isn't falling apart.

As for Enron- explain to me, in your own words, no copy and paste or anything else, what regulations could have been put in place to prevent the Enron scandal? Also in your own words, what other regulations could protect the people of the U.S. from corporations? In your own words explain. Otherwise you sound like someone parroting talking point.


"Wake the fuck up" :rollseyes: Yeah okay, A guy in Norway really knows more about conditions here in the U.S. than someone who lived here their entire life. Comical really.
2011-08-01 08:33:13
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5499|foggy bottom
the gilded age was great for american political theory
Tu Stultus Es
2011-08-01 08:55:01
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Varegg wrote:

It worked fine the first 150 years, why did it not work as fine the last 50 years?

It was merely a few lines to react to not a fucking history book Mac ... how hard can that be if I was so blatantly wrong and ridiculous?

And this is not something I alone have come up with, more and more Americans are not very impressed with the development the last decades ... are you satisfied with how things are now?

So explain to me Macbeth how 30.000 exworkers from Enron that have lost their work, pension etc etc are proof of a system that is the best in the world?

Explain how your politicians brilliantly caused the last huge economic crisis and how that is proof of a system that is the best in the world?

With proper economic regulation you would effictively minimize the chances of Ken Lays, Skillingtons and the likes of them causing so much trouble before it is too late ... the system you have now grow such people in large numbers ... you think Enron was alone scamming the people of California?

You think the energy sector is the only one doing that?

You gotta wake the fuck up Macbeth!
Umm... precisely what has gone wrong over the last fifty years? We're in a recession right now, so what? It's not the norm. Would you have questioned America's economy four years ago or talked about the death of capitalism? No? Didn't think so. Now kindly stop regurgitating meaningless slogans and tossing them out to the rest of us as if they have any basis in reality. Thanks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-01 08:56:47
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England
Enron led to Oxley-Sarbanes anyway, so a repeat is unlikely.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-01 18:15:23
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

In 2004, our "moron" of a president was fighting with both parties to reform entitlements because he and many others saw they were unsustainable then.

He was lambasted for what America is screaming for today.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-01 23:28:07
Varegg
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A 70% consumer based economy is what has gone wrong Jay, it works fine in the US when the unemployment rates are low ... they aren't low anymore and prolly will not be for some time to come, less products gets consumed by unemployed people, less products sold means someone has to go, unemployment rates increases and the spiral keeps going down ...

Overseas investors are looking away from America looking at more stable markets, why? ... because your politicians unstabalize political and economical predictability and it's never been worse than right now!

And yes ... I questioned Americas economy 4 years ago, I made a thread on this forum amongst other things warning about economic distress for US citizens and the housing crisis ... it was ridiculed then as you try to ridicule it now.

If a solid entity as Enron could fall what makes you so sure whatever company you work for will not do the same?

@Macbeth: What did I copy/paste?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-02 02:07:57
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Enron led to Oxley-Sarbanes anyway, so a repeat is unlikely.
LOL OK.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-02 03:06:25
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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Jay wrote:

Enron led to Oxley-Sarbanes anyway, so a repeat is unlikely.
That doesn't apply to privately held companies according to wiki ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-02 03:08:35
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
You mean like Madoff?

Wasn't Sarbanes-Oxley one of the reasons Halliburton moved to Dubai?
Fuck Israel
2011-08-02 03:42:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Varegg wrote:

Jay wrote:

Enron led to Oxley-Sarbanes anyway, so a repeat is unlikely.
That doesn't apply to privately held companies according to wiki ...
Well, you can't buy stock in privately held companies so no shareholders have to worry about getting ripped off now do they?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-02 03:46:07
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Varegg wrote:

A 70% consumer based economy is what has gone wrong Jay, it works fine in the US when the unemployment rates are low ... they aren't low anymore and prolly will not be for some time to come, less products gets consumed by unemployed people, less products sold means someone has to go, unemployment rates increases and the spiral keeps going down ...

Overseas investors are looking away from America looking at more stable markets, why? ... because your politicians unstabalize political and economical predictability and it's never been worse than right now!

And yes ... I questioned Americas economy 4 years ago, I made a thread on this forum amongst other things warning about economic distress for US citizens and the housing crisis ... it was ridiculed then as you try to ridicule it now.

If a solid entity as Enron could fall what makes you so sure whatever company you work for will not do the same?

@Macbeth: What did I copy/paste?
Why are you talking about Enron as if it matters? It hasn't been relevant for a decade now. You're taking a single example and holding it up as if it's the rule rather than an outlier. You do this constantly. You are extraordinarily pessimistic and dour.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-02 03:48:25
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
Its Scandinavian pragmatism, taking the long view, plus the lack of sunlight.

Why do you take such a short-term rosy view?

"Happened 10 years ago, can't possibly happen again"
Fuck Israel
2011-08-02 03:50:42
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its Scandinavian pragmatism, taking the long view, plus the lack of sunlight.

Why do you take such a short-term rosy view?

"Happened 10 years ago, can't possibly happen again"
No, it will happen again. If it were occurring more often, then it would be a serious issue. Instead, it's a once in a generation event.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-02 03:55:02
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England
What Enron did was take out an excessive number of loan accounts that it strung together in such a way as to use past accounts as equity for future accounts. In this way they hid their debt and kept it off their ledger. It's fraudulent as hell, but it's a simple matter of forcing the accountants into taking responsibility for any discrepancies they fail to report. This is what Oxley-Sarbanes does. So the likelihood of something like this happening to another publicly held company is next to nil.

Last edited by Jay (2011-08-02 03:55:33)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

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