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2011-08-05 19:48:54
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
and i still disagree that it is anywhere near as bad as you say. nobody will be ostracized here for having different colour hair, nor especially for being gay, nor for supporting a minority political party. does not happen. as for racial treatment of arabs... then perhaps that relies a little bit on a long tradition in europe of 'west versus east', anglo-christians versus ottomans and turks, etc. but that's a huge stretch. i don't see any evidence for widespread racism/discrimination. xenophobia and insularism is a byproduct of neoliberal market capitalism. same shit happened with america 100 years ago and japan.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-05 19:51:34
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
This from the US, where racial segregation and discrimination is still practically in effect in large areas, and wasn't exactly outlawed that long ago.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-05 19:53:18
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
and where cliques are developed and reinforced to such a ridiculous extent that high-schools are basically scenes of fashion and superficial tribalism, and where galt himself 3 hours ago said i was destined for a life of "rejection" and derision for being a "liberal arts guy" that would "become a hipster and then a yuppie". yeeeep-pie indeed, no social barriers or ostracism here.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-08-05 19:53:46)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-05 19:55:41
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Social identity is what I mean about the cause behind people being socially ostracized for deviation.
For example?

I see no difference between Europe and America in that respect.
We don't have a binding national identity. Sure, most people identify themselves with various social groups, but there tends to be a lot of movement during a single lifetime. It just appears to me that there is a lot less movement in Europe than there is here. We identify more with smaller groups rather than larger ones. Outside of those that follow national politics that is... which, based on our voter turnout, is rather small.

I'm trying to organize my thoughts here, but the best comparison I can think of would be like living in a small town where any abnormality is cause for gossip and social slights. It may not be realized by you all, but it's apparent to someone on the outside like me.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-05 19:56:19
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
in europe you can't be an arab or have pink hair, but in america the land of diversity and plurality, if you have an english degree you're a damn outside that's for sure! or at least fall into some sub-category of contemptible and oft ridiculed stereotype. which is not ostracizing or discriminatory behaviour at all, no, because you had the free choice to submit to the social rejection.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-05 19:57:16
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

This from the US, where racial segregation and discrimination is still practically in effect in large areas, and wasn't exactly outlawed that long ago.
Long enough that the people that were effected by it are collecting social security...
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-05 19:57:31
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Social identity is what I mean about the cause behind people being socially ostracized for deviation.
For example?

I see no difference between Europe and America in that respect.
We don't have a binding national identity. Sure, most people identify themselves with various social groups, but there tends to be a lot of movement during a single lifetime. It just appears to me that there is a lot less movement in Europe than there is here. We identify more with smaller groups rather than larger ones. Outside of those that follow national politics that is... which, based on our voter turnout, is rather small.

I'm trying to organize my thoughts here, but the best comparison I can think of would be like living in a small town where any abnormality is cause for gossip and social slights. It may not be realized by you all, but it's apparent to someone on the outside like me.
evidently not because i have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. "a lot less movement". have you followed european politics from 1950 onwards?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-06 00:58:42
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

This from the US, where racial segregation and discrimination is still practically in effect in large areas, and wasn't exactly outlawed that long ago.
Long enough that the people that were effected by it are collecting social security...
It still exists effectively, and the actual laws themselves were only removed within living memory - compared with hundreds of years ago everywhere but there and South Africa.
We don't have a binding national identity.
From the outside we see the "Ahm an Uhmuhrican gardummit" national identity, and you have no trouble binding together when it suits, for example in times of war.

Whats funny is you're more conformist than most, with your "ah lurve freedumb, soshurlists r evul, durn wiv taxes, ah hayt da gubmint" mantra.
You want to be an individual, like everyone else, OK....

From the outside we see a nation which can only ever find two options to choose from, Republican or Democrat, North or South, Black or White, Abortion =Good/Bad,  Gun Control =Good/Bad, Ford or GM, Sports Team A or Sports Team B.

This "choice of two" thing is a false freedom, its got you truly fooled.
Some diversity and free-thinking would be good.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-06 01:00:19
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
It just appears to me that there is a lot less movement in Europe than there is here.
It seems theres no movement whatever there.
The tea-party is pulling the Republicans slightly further right, otherwise nothing.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-06 04:04:26
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
galt personifies the lack of diversity and real free-thought with his prescribed political views and his "you're a lit major so you fall into a few predefined social stereotypes". i have no idea how he can say that sort of shit all the time and then claim with a straight face that europe is so much worse for acceptance and plurality.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-06 04:19:05
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

I think he is arguing that Europe is not the accepting, pluralistic utopia (in comparison to the US) that some here would make it seem. This argument sort of proves his point, tbh.

Both regions have their own pluses and negatives in that regard. It just seems that some can only make an either-or choice...and they never choose one of them. Or rather, always choose against the same one...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-06 04:37:42
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
nobody is making europe out to be a utopia. more plural and multicultured than the us though? almost certainly.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-08-06 04:37:57)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-06 04:52:36
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

Uzique wrote:

nobody is making europe out to be a utopia. more plural and multicultured than the us though? almost certainly.
No doubt. But to claim that the US is somehow homogeneous? That's nonsense, as well.

Both probably appear to be, at a macro level. But once you "get inside," if you will, you see all kinds of regional variations that make people's very distinct...to the point they become almost separate cultures (subcultures). Within the US, regional/state loyalty/pride can appear nationalistic to one not familiar with our culture. That loyalty/pride stays with one, even if they move (in many cases) around the country. That's hardly homogeneous.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-06 05:00:29
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
considering it relative to the wider cultural and political spectrum, it is homogenous. nobody is saying you have a uniform national identity across the entire north american continent. i think all dilbert is saying is that if you compare the range of cultures and politics in (western) europe, you have a much wider scope and spectrum than america.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-06 05:20:15
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

And if you look at Europe in the same light, it's similarly homogenous. There may be different languages, but core beliefs and attitudes are very similar.

Hell...just like you guys play "spot the American", we play "spot the Euro."
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-06 05:22:45
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
how exactly are our 'core beliefs' similar? compare norway to the uk and then to spain and then to italy. i see no similar "core beliefs".
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-06 05:24:28
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

This from the US, where racial segregation and discrimination is still practically in effect in large areas, and wasn't exactly outlawed that long ago.
Long enough that the people that were effected by it are collecting social security...
It still exists effectively, and the actual laws themselves were only removed within living memory - compared with hundreds of years ago everywhere but there and South Africa.
We don't have a binding national identity.
From the outside we see the "Ahm an Uhmuhrican gardummit" national identity, and you have no trouble binding together when it suits, for example in times of war.

Whats funny is you're more conformist than most, with your "ah lurve freedumb, soshurlists r evul, durn wiv taxes, ah hayt da gubmint" mantra.
You want to be an individual, like everyone else, OK....

From the outside we see a nation which can only ever find two options to choose from, Republican or Democrat, North or South, Black or White, Abortion =Good/Bad,  Gun Control =Good/Bad, Ford or GM, Sports Team A or Sports Team B.

This "choice of two" thing is a false freedom, its got you truly fooled.
Some diversity and free-thinking would be good.
You really haven't got a clue.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-08-06 05:24:34
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

And if you look at Europe in the same light, it's similarly homogenous. There may be different languages, but core beliefs and attitudes are very similar.

Hell...just like you guys play "spot the American", we play "spot the Euro."
No use playing "spot the American", he's way to obvious ...

I don't think that Europeans and Americans are that different when it comes down to it, basically Americans are Europeans mostly anyways ... it's more that unites than divides us
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-06 05:26:49
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

Uzique wrote:

how exactly are our 'core beliefs' similar? compare norway to the uk and then to spain and then to italy. i see no similar "core beliefs".
Generally left of center politically, more social-minded than independent-minded. Steeped in history (for good reason). Affinity for fanny packs and socks with sandals...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-06 05:32:23
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
almost all of western europe right now is ring-wing and conservative, and is increasingly privatised and market-based.

this is what i mean about you americans having a narrow political spectrum and a narrow sense of the range. to you everything in europe is 'left wing' because we don't fall in the narrow band defined by republican-democrat politics in the US. there is a huge variety in europe between the core beliefs and political ideologies of, say, merkel's cdu and greece's bemoaned administration.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-08-06 05:38:26
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

Uzique wrote:

how exactly are our 'core beliefs' similar? compare norway to the uk and then to spain and then to italy. i see no similar "core beliefs".
Generally left of center politically, more social-minded than independent-minded. Steeped in history (for good reason). Affinity for fanny packs and socks with sandals...
Generally left of center: Wrong
More social-minded than independent-minded: Prolly spot on
Affinity for fanny packs: Wtf dude? Not in Norway anyways ...
Socks with sandals: See previous answer.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-08-06 05:42:27
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

And if you look at Europe in the same light, it's similarly homogenous. There may be different languages, but core beliefs and attitudes are very similar.P
Within countries there are huge differences just by region, compare Bavarians and other Germans for example.
Plus with more progressive politcal systems those differences actually get to see the light of day.
Fuck Israel
2011-08-06 05:56:00
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Uzique wrote:

how exactly are our 'core beliefs' similar? compare norway to the uk and then to spain and then to italy. i see no similar "core beliefs".
Generally left of center politically, more social-minded than independent-minded. Steeped in history (for good reason). Affinity for fanny packs and socks with sandals...
Generally left of center: Wrong
More social-minded than independent-minded: Prolly spot on
Affinity for fanny packs: Wtf dude? Not in Norway anyways ...
Socks with sandals: See previous answer.
This is also for Uzique.

When I say left if center, I'm referring to the political spectrum in American terms. I figured that was a given, as much as we've discussed the fact that what is considered "left" in the US is considered "centrist" in much of the rest of the world. What you consider right-wing would be considered center to center-left, possibly here (nut jobs like Breivik being an obvious exception).

Fannypacks and socks: forgot the
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-06 05:59:41
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6651|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

And if you look at Europe in the same light, it's similarly homogenous. There may be different languages, but core beliefs and attitudes are very similar.P
Within countries there are huge differences just by region, compare Bavarians and other Germans for example.
Plus with more progressive politcal systems those differences actually get to see the light of day.
You get the same thing in the States, Dilbert (regional differences). But you've been here, so you should already know all that, right?

As for the "progressive political system" tripe: our system is just fine. Our parties cover a very broad spectrum of issues, so they appeal to the vast majority of the population...they aren't one-trick ponies.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-08-06 06:03:38
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
But you still only have a realistic choice of two.
If you're pro-abortion but want tax cuts who do you vote for? It then boils down to which single issue is more important to you.

Single issue, two party politics is shit at many levels.
Fuck Israel

 

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