What's this I hear about the 14th amendment, and do people think it a potential option?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
They need to meet halfway, yet neither will take that step due to lack of trust.Kmar wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/zjCeD.jpgRobert Scoble wrote:
This picture says it all about what's wrong with our culture, our country, our conversations. We have painted ourselves into a corner and no one is willing to give. These two guys are playing a dangerous game of chicken with our economy.
Will one of them blink? If so, when?
It's time for one of them to. And, no, I won't tell you which one it should be because that would be adding to the problem.
It's not win-win, it's not even win-lose, it's lose-lose.
But it'll be someone elses fault.Shocking wrote:
Every industry will be hit because it would be a global catastrophe and the international markets would lose their trust in the dollar and the US. Chances are, a lot of people would lose their jobs.Jay wrote:
They wouldn't lose either.Shocking wrote:
After seeing those idiots with their 'hold the line' signs on TV, somewhere deep down I'm hoping the US defaults so they lose their jobs and houses. Let's see if they still think it's a good idea after it actually happens.
Ignorant people shouldn't be allowed to vote.
How can you not understand that?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Boehner can't control his own party and the Dems have not really been very serious about cutting spending w/o raising taxes. This is not due to two people.... they look so stressed the fuck out because this historic gridlock in Congress has rendered them personally unable to compromise anything.Jaekus wrote:
They need to meet halfway, yet neither will take that step due to lack of trust.Kmar wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/zjCeD.jpgRobert Scoble wrote:
This picture says it all about what's wrong with our culture, our country, our conversations. We have painted ourselves into a corner and no one is willing to give. These two guys are playing a dangerous game of chicken with our economy.
Will one of them blink? If so, when?
It's time for one of them to. And, no, I won't tell you which one it should be because that would be adding to the problem.
It's not win-win, it's not even win-lose, it's lose-lose.
Maybe cutting taxes while going to war while deregulating Wall Street was a bad idea.... this battle is not about results but ideaology. The neocons are now extinct after their fuckwit assertions that Dems are weak on national security have been proven wrong. Now all that is left for the GOP is to talk about the economy. But they can't even agree on what to do about it when it comes to compromising with the Dems. And the Dems themselves have waited far too long to make cuts they'd rather not do but now cannot compromise b/c no one trusts them.
DERPMaybe cutting taxes while going to war while deregulating Wall Street was a bad idea....
Who was the treasury guy who resigned over that?
They deserved it.The neocons are now extinct after their fuckwit assertions that Dems are weak on national security have been proven wrong.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
That's a much better description than from myself who understands relatively fuck all about US politics.Spearhead wrote:
Boehner can't control his own party and the Dems have not really been very serious about cutting spending w/o raising taxes. This is not due to two people.... they look so stressed the fuck out because this historic gridlock in Congress has rendered them personally unable to compromise anything.Jaekus wrote:
They need to meet halfway, yet neither will take that step due to lack of trust.
It's not win-win, it's not even win-lose, it's lose-lose.
Maybe cutting taxes while going to war while deregulating Wall Street was a bad idea.... this battle is not about results but ideaology. The neocons are now extinct after their fuckwit assertions that Dems are weak on national security have been proven wrong. Now all that is left for the GOP is to talk about the economy. But they can't even agree on what to do about it when it comes to compromising with the Dems. And the Dems themselves have waited far too long to make cuts they'd rather not do but now cannot compromise b/c no one trusts them.
This all really can't hit the debt ceiling though, can it? I'm kinda expecting some last minute scramble where everyone votes for a raise of the debt ceiling and nothing more. Both want their own way, neither wants to take responsibility over the worst but rather pin it on the other (meaning parties, not leaders necessarily). Neither wants to be seen as the ones to be responsible for causing a default, so IMO that's the only course out of this.
No-one wants to blink first.
No-one wants to be the one who proposed raising taxes and cutting spending - even when thats the sole option.
Both sides want to be able to point the finger afterwards and say - "I tried, its their fault"
No-one wants to be the one who proposed raising taxes and cutting spending - even when thats the sole option.
Both sides want to be able to point the finger afterwards and say - "I tried, its their fault"
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Yeah I know, but neither wants to be held accountable for a potential economic catastrophe.
The way I see it, if the worst happens, you do not want to be the one who could've done something but did not.
The way I see it, if the worst happens, you do not want to be the one who could've done something but did not.
Apparently it's coming down to how many Republicans are willing to vote for a hypothetical plan. 25 or so of them have already said under no circumstance will they vote to raise the debt ceiling.Jaekus wrote:
That's a much better description than from myself who understands relatively fuck all about US politics.Spearhead wrote:
Boehner can't control his own party and the Dems have not really been very serious about cutting spending w/o raising taxes. This is not due to two people.... they look so stressed the fuck out because this historic gridlock in Congress has rendered them personally unable to compromise anything.Jaekus wrote:
They need to meet halfway, yet neither will take that step due to lack of trust.
It's not win-win, it's not even win-lose, it's lose-lose.
Maybe cutting taxes while going to war while deregulating Wall Street was a bad idea.... this battle is not about results but ideaology. The neocons are now extinct after their fuckwit assertions that Dems are weak on national security have been proven wrong. Now all that is left for the GOP is to talk about the economy. But they can't even agree on what to do about it when it comes to compromising with the Dems. And the Dems themselves have waited far too long to make cuts they'd rather not do but now cannot compromise b/c no one trusts them.
This all really can't hit the debt ceiling though, can it? I'm kinda expecting some last minute scramble where everyone votes for a raise of the debt ceiling and nothing more. Both want their own way, neither wants to take responsibility over the worst but rather pin it on the other (meaning parties, not leaders necessarily). Neither wants to be seen as the ones to be responsible for causing a default, so IMO that's the only course out of this.
Seriously? Then it's going to happen. No one can turn the world's largest economy around in under a week. Even a few months is incredibly ambitious.Spearhead wrote:
Apparently it's coming down to how many Republicans are willing to vote for a hypothetical plan. 25 or so of them have already said under no circumstance will they vote to raise the debt ceiling.Jaekus wrote:
That's a much better description than from myself who understands relatively fuck all about US politics.Spearhead wrote:
Boehner can't control his own party and the Dems have not really been very serious about cutting spending w/o raising taxes. This is not due to two people.... they look so stressed the fuck out because this historic gridlock in Congress has rendered them personally unable to compromise anything.
Maybe cutting taxes while going to war while deregulating Wall Street was a bad idea.... this battle is not about results but ideaology. The neocons are now extinct after their fuckwit assertions that Dems are weak on national security have been proven wrong. Now all that is left for the GOP is to talk about the economy. But they can't even agree on what to do about it when it comes to compromising with the Dems. And the Dems themselves have waited far too long to make cuts they'd rather not do but now cannot compromise b/c no one trusts them.
This all really can't hit the debt ceiling though, can it? I'm kinda expecting some last minute scramble where everyone votes for a raise of the debt ceiling and nothing more. Both want their own way, neither wants to take responsibility over the worst but rather pin it on the other (meaning parties, not leaders necessarily). Neither wants to be seen as the ones to be responsible for causing a default, so IMO that's the only course out of this.
Collectively they created it, as individuals many of them.Yeah I know, but neither wants to be held accountable for a potential economic catastrophe.
Looking at the floor and saying "um dunno, an older boy told me to" is pathetic.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Following this debate I can see no other conclusion than that the republicans are completely in the wrong. It's time for them to make some concessions and accept that income tax has to be raised. The evisceration of moderates in especially the republican party has left everyone polarized and following public opinion rather than leading it. Is Obama getting a second term really so much of a problem that you're willing to risk the well-being of, not only all of your own citizens, but those of the entire planet on this stand-off?
inane little opines
Of course, but a last minute scramble trying to patch it all together would save some sort of face.Dilbert_X wrote:
Collectively they created it, as individuals many of them.Yeah I know, but neither wants to be held accountable for a potential economic catastrophe.
Looking at the floor and saying "um dunno, an older boy told me to" is pathetic.
Of course, then it's basically blinking first.
Gah, it's a totally fucked situation. Fundamental example of why I hate politics.
Both spending cuts and raising taxes. The US economy is like a ship with a breached hull; the only way it can be fixed is temporarily taking it into port and repairing the damage. To extend the analogy, bucketing the water isn't going to help and neither is repairing the hull whilst it's moving. Both need to happen. At the end of the day, win or lose politically, they are public servants and their job description is supposed to be looking after the people, not their ambitions.Shocking wrote:
Following this debate I can see no other conclusion than that the republicans are completely in the wrong. It's time for them to make some concessions and accept that income tax has to be raised. The evisceration of moderates in especially the republican party has left everyone polarized and following public opinion rather than leading it. Is Obama getting a second term really so much of a problem that you're willing to risk the well-being of, not only all of your own citizens, but those of the entire planet on this stand-off?
Well that is what was proposed but they denied. They're going to hold on stone faced until, and possibly over, the last minute.
inane little opines
I hope you aren't right, but I suspect you might be.
China weighed in yesterday night and basically called out this entire debate as being lead by a bunch of ignorant pricks. With every minute/hour/day wasted the reputation of the US is getting damaged and its economy is taking hits; the dow jones has been plunging faster every day since Friday, most notably wednesday and yesterday.
inane little opines
None of this would even be an issue if the government had limited itself to what it took in in revenue in the first place. Too many of them act like 'whatever, it's not a big deal'. I'm seriously tired of politicians.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
It's what happens; the democrats tried to deliver on their campaign promises which required new programs, with little room left to cut. If they want to curb spending now a tax increase has to be part of the deal.
inane little opines
Not really, there are always old programs to cut out. The way I see it, if you had a government that couldn't raise tax rates and was locked in at a certain share of the GDP, they would be forced to be more efficient. When your resources are limited, you tend to prioritize that which has the most impact. Since they have free reign to spend whatever they want, they never go back and revisit old programs that don't work. I really don't care what they do within the limit, like, if they could fit a NHS type thing in their budget, good for them. I just want rationalism and efficiency tossed into the pot.Shocking wrote:
It's what happens; the democrats tried to deliver on their campaign promises which required new programs, with little room left to cut. If they want to curb spending now a tax increase has to be part of the deal.
Last edited by Jay (2011-07-29 06:30:36)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
They're both responsible but with time nigh the only way out now is to raise the debt ceiling. No amount of tax hikes or spending cuts will be enough to change the inevitability of August 2nd. Surely they must make this call, one way or another. I think they all know it and it will happen, it is simply a matter of who blinks first. And yeah, I too have been tired of politicians for some time now.
Ideally yes but considering the limited amount of time left until the default I don't think they will be able to scrape together enough seemingly obsolete programs to account for a similar amount of money as increasing the tax rates will provide. Or you can aim for cutting the budgets of the large spenders like the military, but I doubt the republicans would allow that from happening either. If you don't want to increase tax at all you're going to have to accept cuts in your favorite programs. The plan that was proposed seemed reasonable, really - I feel the only reason they're not agreeing to it is because it would end up with the conservatives being crucified by their own constituency and Obama getting a ride to his second term.
Last edited by Shocking (2011-07-29 06:48:10)
inane little opines
Would you say it's a case of having your cake and eating it too, so to speak?
Besides, the Democrats were elected to basically increase spending and 'spread the wealth' i.e.: increase taxes, by voting for them the public didn't seem to be concerned about any limit.
inane little opines
In a sense yes.Jaekus wrote:
Would you say it's a case of having your cake and eating it too, so to speak?
inane little opines