Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5587

I keep hearing this come up in many right wing discussion groups. It's funny hearing them complain about the U.S. supplying weapons to cartels and fueling violence down there. It's not sad funny but funny funny. Like a hilarious joke.

It's so funny because they really don't give a shit about the guns and violence in Mexico. No ones does. They also don't give a shit about the one customs officer that got killed. They say they do but the truth is- no gives a shit about U.S. military or police dying somewhere unless it affects them personally.

This whole thing is just being used as opportunity for both sides to take shots at each other like the million and one other things that happen in some crappy little part of the world we occasionally give attention to.

That's funny.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker
What's funny is a liberal administration being the one funneling guns to the cartel when they consistently support limiting the legal ownership of weapons by the citizens that elected them.  The rest is sad.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6539|Long Island, New York

Stingray24 wrote:

What's funny is a liberal administration being the one funneling guns to the cartel when they consistently support limiting the legal ownership of weapons by the citizens that elected them.  The rest is sad.
I love how you just completely proved Macbeth's point.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6716|US
The US government shouldn't be buying guns for the cartels, period. 
Yes, I am upset over this, but it sounds like it may have been going on for quite a while!
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5587

We weren't buying guns for them.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6412|'Murka

Macbeth wrote:

We weren't buying guns for them.
Nah. Buying guns and giving them to the cartels is completely different.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5587

We didn't buy guns for them. We just let straw purchases go through that we knew were going to go down to Mexico. Instead of stopping these purchases we instead attempted to track them.

So we didn't buy guns for anyone. The "we bought guns for them" thing is just crap propaganda.

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-10-10 19:56:24)

Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5703|College Park, MD
fire Eric Holder

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ … story.html

grossly incompetent fool who ought to be working at a popeye's. bring back Gonzales!
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6412|'Murka

Macbeth wrote:

We didn't buy guns for them. We just let straw purchases go through that we knew were going to go down to Mexico. Instead of stopping these purchases we instead attempted to track them.

So we didn't buy guns for anyone. The "we bought guns for them" thing is just crap propaganda.
Bought them for them/made sure they got sold to them...the distinction is completely irrelevant. You do realize that, don't you?

Either way, our government ensured that these weapons got into the hands of the wrong people, then actively worked to cover it up. And now those responsible are lying about it.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5587

The distinction is important. It's the same as not busting a lowly drug dealer in order to track the supplier of the drugs. It's different than buying a bunch of crack and releasing it into a neighborhood in order to try to make contact with drug suppliers. One is being an active participant, the other is observing a the natural order of things.

Either way, I don't hold it against the ATF. If you want to fight a war against drugs, you are going to have to get dirty and take causalities. Meh

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-10-10 20:11:55)

Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5703|College Park, MD
Facilitated it, got one of their men killed, tried to cover it up, the head honcho played the ignorant fool but had plenty of knowledge of the whole operation... fail.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5587

Got any other ideas on how to stem the flow of guns down there? I would love to hear them.

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-10-10 20:16:08)

Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5703|College Park, MD
nuke mexico, end the war on drugs, or some combination thereof

I'm more angered by the cover-ups and the empire of lies than the program itself, although it also pisses me off that it got one of their own guys killed. It's like some shitty knock-off of one of the seasons of 24.

Last edited by Hurricane2k9 (2011-10-10 20:22:23)

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5587

I'm more angered by the cover-ups and the empire of lies than the program itself
They should have taken the more confrontational approach of "shit happens"
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5703|College Park, MD
people love a good story and what better story than twists and turns and cover-ups? the media probably would have let it blow over if they had outright admitted everything simply because there wouldn't be much to raise a furor over.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6716|US
Avila was recruited by his roommate Uriel Patino. Patino, according to sources, received $70,000 in "seed money" from the FBI informant late in 2009 to buy guns for the cartel.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09 … er-agents/

Not only did ATF agents buy guns, then sell them to cartel buyers, but the FBI gave them money to make the purchases.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6412|'Murka

Macbeth wrote:

The distinction is important. It's the same as not busting a lowly drug dealer in order to track the supplier of the drugs. It's different than buying a bunch of crack and releasing it into a neighborhood in order to try to make contact with drug suppliers. One is being an active participant, the other is observing a the natural order of things.

Either way, I don't hold it against the ATF. If you want to fight a war against drugs, you are going to have to get dirty and take causalities. Meh
See, you think the precipitating bit is important. I don't. That's why I said the difference is irrelevant.

It's the follow-up that's important (or the planning, really). This was poorly planned from the beginning. You don't play with fire unless you have a fire extinguisher close at hand. And when you burn the house down, you don't try to say someone else left the stove on.

And just what does the term "seed money" mean to you, Macbeth?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
west-phoenix-az
Guns don't kill people. . . joe bidens advice does
+632|6391
https://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/72/6e/726ec3da59b23346122a850d2ec84928.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-n … -gunwalker

"The existence of this letter," Vanderboegh writes, "coupled with interviews of other sources across the country which put it into context, provides startling proof that the Federal government did not merely 'lose track' of weapons purchased by 'straw buyers' under surveillance by the ATF and destined for the Mexican drug cartels. In an undercover operation ordered by Fast and Furious supervisor David Voth, the U.S. government purchased firearms with taxpayer money from licensed firearms dealers, instructed them to conduct the sales 'off the books,' and used an ATF agent, John Dodson, to deliver them directly to people that Dodson believed were conducting them across the border."
https://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/west-phoenix-az/BF2S/bf2s_sig_9mmbrass.jpg
west-phoenix-az
Guns don't kill people. . . joe bidens advice does
+632|6391
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/12/05/open … t-furious/

Open Letter to the Arizona Republic Newspaper on Fast & Furious
Monday, December 5th, 2011 at 9:44 AM

By Rabbi Dovid Bendory, Rabbinic Director,
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.
Copyright 2011 JPFO

https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Jews-For-The-Preservation-Of-Firearms-Ownership-Logo.jpgWashington, DC --(Ammoland.com)- To the Editor: On Sunday, November 27 2011, the Arizona Republic newspaper published a fairly lengthy story about the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) gun-running debacle code-named “Operation Fast and Furious”.

Reporter Dennis Wagner obviously put in a lot of leg work and research on the piece.

However, upon closer perusal, what soon became evident was that many details were left out of the article. In many ways, the article appears as though it was written by the press department of the U.S. Justice Department.

The DOJ/BATFE “party line” is parroted so often in the article that it leaves me wondering about editorial bias in what is ostensibly a news piece.

   1. In the time-worn liberal tactic of “Blame Bush”, the article repeatedly tries to connect “Operation Fast and Furious” with the previous Bush administration’s “Operation Wide Receiver“. Nowhere in the Republic’s article is it mentioned that the Mexican government was a full partner in “Wide Receiver”. In contrast, the Mexicans knew nothing about the debacle known as “Fast and Furious”.

   2. The article repeatedly parrots the BATFE/DOJ party line assertion that “Fast and Furious” was a “rogue” scheme that originated solely in the Phoenix office of the BATFE. The Obama administration – specifically, Eric Holder – supposedly knew nothing about it. If it is true that Holder knew nothing about it, this bespeaks an incompetence that should cost him his job. If he in fact knew about the operation, he should be indicted.

   3. There is a strange mixed message in the article regarding the death of border agent Brian Terry. From the article, it appears as if the two firearms found at the scene were NOT guns that had been allowed to “walk” in “Fast and Furious”. If the guns were not BATFE connected, why was this sad event so powerful in the minds of some BATFE agents that they actually broke ranks and became whistle blowers?

   4. The article makes no mention of the fact that some of the “straw purchasers” of Fast and Furious were actually undercover agents of the BATFE and FBI or that they bought the guns with U.S. taxpayer money. Also conveniently omitted was the fact that the FBI apparently interfered with the “National Criminal Instant Background Check System” (NICS) in order to ALLOW known felons to make the gun buys at Arizona gun stores! Similarly, when store owners reported what they believed to be suspicious sales of multiple rifles purchased by the same party with cash, they were explicitly told by BATFE to allow the suspicious purchases to proceed.

On the positive side, I was pleasantly surprised at how fairly the two bloggers who broke the “Fast and Furious” scandal were treated by reporter Dennis Wagner. It’s good that these two righteous Americans are getting the credit that is due them. Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership has already bestowed upon them our “David and Goliath Award“. When the history of “Fast and Furious” is finally exposed for the travesty it was, these two gentlemen will make Woodward and Bernstein of Watergate fame look like first-year journalism school hacks.

Let’s not forget that “Fast and Furious” was also a blatant scheme to plant evidence that would validate outrageously dishonest claims regarding the volumes of U.S. retail sourced weapons turning up in Mexico at crime scenes. While the article debunked this “90 percent Myth“, it omitted the legitimate gun trace statistic: 17 percent. And that 17 percent includes guns effectively sent across the border by Fast and Furious.

    How low would the number be had our government not joined in?

Also, I’d like to point out an oddity that no one seems to notice. Your article, as have others, nonchalantly mentions US guns “found” at murder scenes in Mexico. Is there some rule of honor in Mexican murders that requires dropping a gun by the victim’s body? If these guns are so precious to the cartels, why don’t the murderers take them when they leave the scene? It oddly appears as if the shooter really didn’t care about the expense of the weapon — that it was more important that it be known which weapon was used in the murder. How convenient that up until “Fast and Furious” was halted, the killers could count on the BATFE to ship a replacement gun to Mexico for them.

Blessings of Shalom,
Rabbi Dovid Bendory
Rabbinic Director
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership

Rabbi Bendory is an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor. The Rabbi’s Archive page.

Last edited by west-phoenix-az (2011-12-05 11:54:34)

https://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/west-phoenix-az/BF2S/bf2s_sig_9mmbrass.jpg
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6716|US
Hm...looks like some of the conspiracy types might be right.

I had kind of hoped it was a combo of international cartel balancing and idiocy, but it looks like desire for power/anti-gun rights played a part.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-5 … gulations/
13rin
Member
+977|6481
And here illustrates holder's mindset on why he'd embark on such a fucking moronic crusade.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government … Cigarettes

Last edited by 13rin (2012-03-19 06:52:45)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker
Fav quote:

“And with respect to executive privilege, Mr. Chairman, I am going to resist the temptation to contrast Senator Obama‘s position on executive privilege with President Obama’s position on executive privilege”

Watch video below:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/heres-t … ACyV4mR5p0
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6716|US
It's an interesting development for sure.  Why did the President feel the need to keep these documents from Congress?

I can see a few possibilities:
a) They make the DOJ look bad, and the WH doesn't want negative publicity during campaign season.
b) They link parties outside the DOJ to the terrible decision making that occured.
c) They expose potentially criminal actions within the DOJ.
d) They expose potentially criminal actions outside of the DOJ.

Anyone else see alternatives that aren't politically motivated or try to cover up potential criminal actions?
I know situations like these are ripe for conspiracy theories and confirmation bias, but I really don't see any options that are not trying to cover negligence or felonious acts.  Anybody want to provide a legitimate reason?
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5703|College Park, MD
It's a cover-up. If they had nothing to hide then he wouldn't be hiding them.

Ol' Eric probably called him at the last minute and said "Help a brother out!"
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
13rin
Member
+977|6481
Damn straight it's a coverup.   Our fearless leader fucking knew the whole time.  Hell, who knows?  It could have even been his idea.  What a dick.  Nixon was impeached for far, far less.  These guys are criminals.  I can't believe he's been able to dodge this for this long.  In the end he goes for the 'executive privilege'.  This callous administration has no shame, dignity, sense of duty to the public, or honor for the men and women who fight for them.  Pathetic.... . Impeach. 

The family of the Patrol Agent Terry has filed a 25 million suit against the ATF.  I hope they win.   

I chuckled when I read the Washington Times piece on the gun ownership to violent crime statistic.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

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