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2011-07-19 08:20:51
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5419|Sydney

Macbeth wrote:

I don't give two shits about whatever started this topic but I will just jump in here.
Statistically Europe enjoys a higher quality of life so perhaps you could learn something from us?
Apples and oranges. You cannot compare a large country like the U.S. with small countries like Denmark or Ireland. Those countries are not in the same league as Russia, China, India, Brazil. Those four countries are the only ones in the world that could ever be compared with United States. Ireland and Finland lack the responsibility, size, and importance of all of the aforementioned.

But if you want to compare quality of life a good measure would be the United Nations Human Development Index. The last time the rankings came out (2010) the U.S. came 4th in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
#2 here bitches, yeah!

Last edited by Jaekus (2011-07-19 08:21:41)

2011-07-19 08:45:55
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England

Macbeth wrote:

I don't give two shits about whatever started this topic but I will just jump in here.
Statistically Europe enjoys a higher quality of life so perhaps you could learn something from us?
Apples and oranges. You cannot compare a large country like the U.S. with small countries like Denmark or Ireland. Those countries are not in the same league as Russia, China, India, Brazil. Those four countries are the only ones in the world that could ever be compared with United States. Ireland and Finland lack the responsibility, size, and importance of all of the aforementioned.

But if you want to compare quality of life a good measure would be the United Nations Human Development Index. The last time the rankings came out (2010) the U.S. came 4th in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Note that they have completely revised their workings and in the 2009 report the US was 13th. Also I take issue with measuring GDP per capita as a measure of standard of living as it doesn't take into account the wealth distribution.

Actually it has a pretty important list of exclusions:

Crime
Violence
War
Access to Healthcare
Environment / Pollution
amongst others.


Hmm reading a bit further the inequality adjusted indices

The 2010 Human Development Report was also the first to calculate an Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index, which factors in inequalities in the three basic dimensions of human development (income, life expectancy, and education).
Places the US as 12th which suggests that they may be awesome overall but wealth health and education distribution is rubbish.

To address the second half of the post I take the point that the size of the country is completely different but you cant really draw an equal comparison with Brazil or India as they are both developing, Russia isn't much better and China is going to be a few years before you could make a meaningful comparison. If you look at Europe on the whole then you are on your way to having a large enough sample to compare but there simply isnt another country that is directly comparable.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-07-19 08:49:23)

2011-07-19 08:54:00
13rin
Member
+977|6720
UPDATE

Getting Weaker.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2011-07-19 08:56:23
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England
New post as new point

Caught this on the BBC which bought me back here as I knew it would make lowing go crazy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14199078

In the nine years Mark Stroman has been on death row in Texas, he says he has watched 208 people walk past him on the way to be executed.

This week it is his turn.

But fighting to save his life is the man he shot in the face and blinded in one eye.

...

"What Mark Stroman did was a hate crime, and hate crimes come from ignorance," said Rais Bhuiyan, 37, the only man to survive the shooting.

"His execution will not eradicate hate crimes from this world, we will just simply lose another human life."
Im not advocating letting off all murderers but thought that as the source is the victim it might be food for thought.

At least its more on topic than most of the rubbish
2011-07-19 08:59:43
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5500|foggy bottom
people who are sent to pelican bay are not nice guys.  pelican bay is a prison for prisoners who cant be held in other prison due to their actions and history.  say a guy kills 10 people in san quentin, he gets sent to pelican bay.
Tu Stultus Es
2011-07-19 09:42:16
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6711

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

New post as new point

Caught this on the BBC which bought me back here as I knew it would make lowing go crazy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14199078

In the nine years Mark Stroman has been on death row in Texas, he says he has watched 208 people walk past him on the way to be executed.

This week it is his turn.

But fighting to save his life is the man he shot in the face and blinded in one eye.

...

"What Mark Stroman did was a hate crime, and hate crimes come from ignorance," said Rais Bhuiyan, 37, the only man to survive the shooting.

"His execution will not eradicate hate crimes from this world, we will just simply lose another human life."
Im not advocating letting off all murderers but thought that as the source is the victim it might be food for thought.

At least its more on topic than most of the rubbish
what a fucking horrifically stupid cunt.

he deserves to die for being a disgrace to the human race. "what all americans after 9/11 were saying was 'lets get them'"

wow. you stupid cunt.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 09:53:49
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5826

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

I don't give two shits about whatever started this topic but I will just jump in here.
Statistically Europe enjoys a higher quality of life so perhaps you could learn something from us?
Apples and oranges. You cannot compare a large country like the U.S. with small countries like Denmark or Ireland. Those countries are not in the same league as Russia, China, India, Brazil. Those four countries are the only ones in the world that could ever be compared with United States. Ireland and Finland lack the responsibility, size, and importance of all of the aforementioned.

But if you want to compare quality of life a good measure would be the United Nations Human Development Index. The last time the rankings came out (2010) the U.S. came 4th in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Note that they have completely revised their workings and in the 2009 report the US was 13th. Also I take issue with measuring GDP per capita as a measure of standard of living as it doesn't take into account the wealth distribution.

Actually it has a pretty important list of exclusions:

Crime
Violence
War
Access to Healthcare
Environment / Pollution
amongst others.


Hmm reading a bit further the inequality adjusted indices

The 2010 Human Development Report was also the first to calculate an Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index, which factors in inequalities in the three basic dimensions of human development (income, life expectancy, and education).
Places the US as 12th which suggests that they may be awesome overall but wealth health and education distribution is rubbish.

To address the second half of the post I take the point that the size of the country is completely different but you cant really draw an equal comparison with Brazil or India as they are both developing, Russia isn't much better and China is going to be a few years before you could make a meaningful comparison. If you look at Europe on the whole then you are on your way to having a large enough sample to compare but there simply isnt another country that is directly comparable.
Le sigh.

Crime, violence, healthcare access etc. are all covered by the life expectancy part of the formula.

When you say "Europe" do you mean "Western Europe" because if you wanted to make an overall comparison between all of Europe and the United States we would still come out on top. Hell on the second table the country you live in suffers from more inequality than the U.S., so who can learn from who?
2011-07-19 09:57:53
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6711
'western europe' has mostly always been synonymous with 'europe', as it stands from its main period of imperial activity. eastern europe is culturally and historically very different - splitting almost way back when with the roman empire between rome and constantinople. nowadays it has only really been unified again as a loose economic and legal trade agreement. our nation's development and identities are pretty incongruous. so your argument kinda falls apart... 'europe' as you conveniently designate it is basically the european union, which is like using the dire condition of mexico (and its place within nafta) as a means to degrade america. we're not doing that. we're talking about nations, not trade-unions.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 16:00:45
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England
If you are robbed every month how does that translate to life expectancy?

I was doubting the methods of the linked tables so im hardly going to support their results im afraid

I was particularly impressed by the opening paragraphs describing how even though it was ridiculous to try to quantify quality of life in a simple ratio it would be difficult to have a political impact otherwise. Hmmmmm.
2011-07-19 16:18:31
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+564|6954|Purplicious Wisconsin

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … 7_2008.PNG
Let me better phrase it, if you add all those nations in Europe together, how does that compare to USA? Total amount of prison population in Europe all together and not individually.
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2011-07-19 16:23:28
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6711
that figure would have no relevance though because every european country has different legal systems, standards and procedures. so how would it be a fair comparison? it's like saying "add the population of several entirely different countries so you have a figure equivalent to the us system, THEN compare prison stats". it's completely irrelevant. the us legal system is derivative of the english/common law system, so you have a fairly good comparison point there in terms of custodial sentences given out in criminal proceedings. i can guarantee that almost every european country has a lower incarceration rate than america. adding those together will produce nothing meaningful, however.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 18:52:35
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5419|Sydney
Exactly ^

@War Man: Comparing a country to a continent is an argument that will never wash. That's why it's a lot more relevant to compare nations on a per capita basis after taking other considerations like legal systems, governments, economic and technological development, social conventions and so on.
2011-07-20 00:56:07
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6347|eXtreme to the maX

Macbeth wrote:

I don't give two shits about whatever started this topic but I will just jump in here.
Statistically Europe enjoys a higher quality of life so perhaps you could learn something from us?
Apples and oranges. You cannot compare a large country like the U.S. with small countries like Denmark or Ireland. Those countries are not in the same league as Russia, China, India, Brazil. Those four countries are the only ones in the world that could ever be compared with United States. Ireland and Finland lack the responsibility, size, and importance of all of the aforementioned.

But if you want to compare quality of life a good measure would be the United Nations Human Development Index. The last time the rankings came out (2010) the U.S. came 4th in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Don't see how the size of the country could even be slightly relevant.
Fuck Israel
2011-07-20 02:08:58
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England
USA has >700 people per 100,000 in jail. Europe averages <150 per 100,000. Add them together as much as you like the rate will stay the same. H2H.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-07-20 02:10:28)

2011-07-20 02:30:37
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6711
yeah but how many mexicans without greencards does europe have per 100,000

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-20 03:49:35
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England
That depends on if you mean all of the land technically on the European continent or just the collective countries normally referred to as Europe
2011-07-20 03:59:42
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6347|eXtreme to the maX

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

That depends on if you mean all of the land technically on the European continent or just the collective countries normally referred to as Europe
Seems like Australia wins again, if we're talking convicts per square kilometre you can count the whole population and still be ahead of America.
Fuck Israel
2011-07-20 04:04:42
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

That depends on if you mean all of the land technically on the European continent or just the collective countries normally referred to as Europe
Seems like Australia wins again, if we're talking convicts per square kilometre you can count the whole population and still be ahead of America.
That was in reference to the number of Mexicans without green cards
2011-07-20 04:07:42
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6347|eXtreme to the maX
If its Mexicans then Aus is doing even better.

Barely any Mexicans here at all.
Fuck Israel
2011-07-20 04:21:11
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England
Ah Dilbert unfortunately you get bonus points for having "illegal aliens" as you simply detract them from your crime rate and prison population (and budget deficit?) to get down to the "real" rates.
2011-07-21 04:24:51
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6892|USA

Uzique wrote:

lowing one in 11 african-american males are in or have been in the prison system of the US at some point.

now are you suggesting that african-americans are illegal aliens? that they're coming from... zimbabwe? ghana? niger?
Nope, not at all. But that is not a reflexion on our society more than it is a reflexion on the individual. Or maybe you can explain how 10 out of 11 black men seem to manage life in our society without ever going to jail.
2011-07-21 04:26:00
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6892|USA

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

lowing wrote:

ok show me stats on how many people in your prisons are illegal aliens, and lets compare.
Correct me if im wrong but we deport "illegal aliens" (little grey men?) instead of spending 35k a year to accommodate them.

I get the impression these "illegal aliens" are somewhat of a scapegoat in the US.
We do not through them in prison for being here illegally, We do throw them in prison for crime though.
2011-07-21 04:33:42
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6973|Cambridge, England

lowing wrote:

Nope, not at all. But that is not a reflexion on our society more than it is a reflexion on the individual. Or maybe you can explain how 10 out of 11 black men seem to manage life in our society without ever going to jail.
So criminals making up 9% of the population is not a reflection on your society / culture?

No wonder you think the system is working.

lowing wrote:

We do not through them in prison for being here illegally, We do throw them in prison for crime though.
Why don't you deport them? Then they wont commit crime in USA. Problem solved? Or failing that when you arrest them and realise they are little green men why don't you deport them? Then they wont be in your prison system.

Or (and this might be a bit radical for you) why don't you look at why so many resort to a life of crime? Then you could treat the cause of the problem rather than the symptoms. But then I guess hell would freeze over.
2011-07-21 04:46:05
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6892|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Uzique wrote:

lowing our infrastructure is much older than yours in america. no shit the govt. is going to try and incentivize people to live where it's more convenient for everyone. if you live in a nanny-state, you'd rather it be an efficient one than one that throws money away, no?
That and Yurpeons don't see the benefit in covering the countryside with slums and roadways.

http://www.self-catering-breaks.com/ima … 693043.jpg

is way better than

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GBaAuR8F3Zw/T … wtn+LA.jpg

Even if it does mean living in small houses close to where people work.
well fuck I can do that as well.
http://www.localpropertyindex.com/Searc … 00000/0/p2

and in the suburbs of Atlanta for the same money you get

http://www.remax-georgia.com/zip/30004
2011-07-21 04:47:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6892|USA

Uzique wrote:

there's much to be said in favour of and against suburban living... but one thing that's for sure is that i have no qualms with our tight planning/building regulation. i'd rather see a greenbelt area kept as a greenbelt area than to be greedily snapped up by developers and turned into another disgustingly identikit, soul-less and bland 'suburb' full of imitation-edwardian houses and 4x4's.
Well I guess it is a good thing your govt. made that decision for you then, huh?

 

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