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FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5100|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

they have been. the conclusions made and unwillingness to listen to the irrefutable facts dug up of the opposite side speak for themselves.
The classic counter of the conspiracy theorist. Lack of evidence/proof of the conspiracy is proof of the conspiracy.

The entirety of world opinion is against you on this, Shahter. It's as if you're saying the pyramids in Egypt were built by Russians because you've got documents in Russian--that you are unwilling to translate--that say so. Even though everyone else has piles and piles of evidence showing that they were built by Egyptians.

It's the same with Katyn. All evidence (to include evidence provided by a survivor) points to the NKVD doing this, with the specific direction and approval of the highest levels of Soviet leadership, followed by a coverup/misdirection that blamed it on the Germans--who the Soviets were allied with at the time. That coverup lasted for decades, because to not believe it meant you would go along with something put out by the Nazis, who put out what really happened at Katyn after the Soviets switched sides, hoping to drive a wedge between the Allies and delay help on the Eastern front. It didn't work for the Nazis, as that play was basically ignored for decades until a push by Poles to figure out what really happened. So the world figured out what really happened.

In order for the conspiracy to work as you believe, (since you haven't really described anything at all), it would appear to have to go something like this:

Gorbachev's government forged a bunch of documents showing Soviet culpability in a heinous war crime that had for decades been blamed on the Nazis. They placed said forgeries in the archives of various countries (to include the US) to be uncovered by researchers once they initiated glasnost. Included in the forgeries were Luftwaffe aerial reconnaissance photos of mass graves being created in the Soviet areas of Katyn and at least two other areas that were also found in the US National Archives (again, the US was fine with the explanation that the Nazis had done Katyn). I know...they were Luftwaffe photos--clearly doctored by the Germans to make the Soviets look bad!

To go along with your conspiracy theory, it would have made much more sense for the US to have "uncovered" the Soviet war crime in the 50s or 60s--at the height of the Red Scare--rather than when relations with the USSR were improving. So there's no benefit to the US to taking part in said conspiracy at the time it happened. Next, there's no benefit to the USSR (other than the truth) to the timing of the conspiracy--it would have been far better to keep that secret buried. Or, if they are going through the trouble of forging a bunch of shit, to forge incontrovertible proof that the Nazis were responsible and then hand that over to the Polish government.

There are so many ways that your conspiracy fails with just a modicum of objective analysis, Shahter. I personally couldn't care less, but the facts simply don't support your position.

The Soviets did something really bad. Get over it. Every country has its black marks. It's not like you're being held personally accountable for what a bunch of egomaniacal assholes did in the 1940s, Shahter. You are, however, being held accountable for the poor quality of your arguments here. And they are poor--classic unsupported conspiracy bullshit, tbh.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5100|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

And which European countries, apart from Germany, rounded up jews before they were invaded?
And where did I say anything about rounding up Jews?
About here:

FEOS wrote:

If other European countries hadn't had the same feelings as Germany about the Jews, they wouldn't have worked with Germany to find a solution to get the Jews out of Europe.
I've looked through what you quoted, and can't find "round" or "up" a single time. Can you highlight it for me?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Again, you need to read more pre-war history. The problems for the Jews started well before they started getting "rounded up" by Germany.
Every minority has been persecuted at one time or another, the jews think they're a special case - they're not.
Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, Homosexuals etc etc
I was wondering how long it would take for you to break out this old saw. Again, read up on the history of the Holocaust. It started with the Jews, then they added other "undesirables" to the mix. Jews were by far the largest group persecuted, and have been persecuted--historically--by more countries than just Germany in Europe. So they probably have a legitimate gripe.

inb4dilbertsaysitstheirfault
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|5499|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

dude... how to phrase that... i'm not lowing. i'm not provoked by your condescending tone, i don't think anybody's out to get me and i don't give a flying fuck about your endless popularity contests.
You sure have made an effort debating like him in this thread, and what popularity contest?

You are the one having problems debating the issue with reasonable arguments ...

I have a tendency of being condescending when I debate against such arrogance as you have provided in this thread.

Shahter wrote:

"everyone's" opinion has a tendency to change - i live in russia, ffs, i know that all too well. i also know the usual reasons for that change, and truth and objective research are far from being major factors.
Yes ... opinions change, have nothing to do with what country you live in ...

Shahter wrote:

and yes, science has the ability to determine forged documents. all the more reasons to wonder why so many obvious sighs of forgery have been overlooked in this case. because even if a small fracture of what's been reported is true, all the conclusions made by "objective researchers" sould go to hell in an instant.
All the more reason to ignore that maybe the documents are real? ... if the so called obvious signs was so obvious don't you think there would have been more rabble about the Katyn massacre ... because fact is there are no real disagreement on who was responsible for it, only a few deniers that repeat the same ol conspiracy crap over and over again ...

I'm not sure you even understand how a researcher work ... with so many people being involved in thorough research of these documents it would be more obvious if there was a suspicion of forgery of the content ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5100|'Murka

It's just proof of the larger conspiracy, Varegg.

THAT'S HOW CONSPIRACIES WORK!
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|5364|Canberra, AUS
Conspiracy arguments at times look strikingly similar to the classic "it's turtles all the way down!" argument.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|5499|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

It's just proof of the larger conspiracy, Varegg.

THAT'S HOW CONSPIRACIES WORK!
Apparently

Regarding one of the issues you and Dilbert have been discussing, I'm at that part right now in Ian Kershaws book about Hitler concerning the meetings between Chamberlain and Hitler about Sudetenland ... it's scary how calculating Hitler was and how he counted on France not honoring it's pact with Czechoslovakia.

Fascinating book
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+285|5464|Moscow, Russia
@FEOS & Varegg: if one conspiracy stood for all those years because "to not believe it meant you would go along with something put out by the nazis", why can't another stand now because "to not believe it means you go along with something put out by the soviets"?

Last edited by Shahter (2011-06-30 04:40:57)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4795|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

I've looked through what you quoted, and can't find "round" or "up" a single time. Can you highlight it for me?
Then explain what you meant by "worked with Germany to find a solution to get the Jews out of Europe".

Dilbert_X wrote:

I was wondering how long it would take for you to break out this old saw. Again, read up on the history of the Holocaust. It started with the Jews, then they added other "undesirables" to the mix. Jews were by far the largest group persecuted, and have been persecuted--historically--by more countries than just Germany in Europe. So they probably have a legitimate gripe.
They were the largest minority group persecuted because they were just that, the largest minority group.
Had there been 10 million gypsies living in Germany and 1,000 jews no doubt the gypsies would apparently have had it worse based solely on the numbers.

Its easy to demonise minorities, just as muslims have been demonised for a while now.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|5499|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

@FEOS & Varegg: if one conspiracy stood for all those years because "to not believe it meant you would go along with something put out by the nazis", why can't another stand now because "to not believe it means you go along with something put out by the soviets"?
Simply because what we have been nagging about now for several pages: The evidence and all of the evidence, documents, survivors etc etc points to one quite clear conclusion ... Stalin ordered the massacre and NKVD excuted the order.

That's what the evidence points to as THE most plausible explanation.

If however new evidence should come forward that after examination tells another story I will adjust my opinion on the matter, however the chance of something new is so small it's safe to asume the conclusion as of now is the final conclusion ... but I'm not excluding the possibility entirely ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+285|5464|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:

@FEOS & Varegg: if one conspiracy stood for all those years because "to not believe it meant you would go along with something put out by the nazis", why can't another stand now because "to not believe it means you go along with something put out by the soviets"?
Simply because what we have been nagging about now for several pages: The evidence and all of the evidence, documents, survivors etc etc points to one quite clear conclusion ... Stalin ordered the massacre and NKVD excuted the order.

That's what the evidence points to as THE most plausible explanation.

If however new evidence should come forward that after examination tells another story I will adjust my opinion on the matter, however the chance of something new is so small it's safe to asume the conclusion as of now is the final conclusion ... but I'm not excluding the possibility entirely ...
so, you won't even concede that what could have worked before could just as well work now - for the same reasons, but reflecting different interests?

edit: ah, scratch that. you would concede that. okay, then, as i said, go study more.

Last edited by Shahter (2011-06-30 06:33:32)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|5499|Nårvei

How old are you Shahter?

Reason I'm asking is because I'm 40 and unless you are older than me I doubt you have studied this more than me, not that that itself proves me more knowledgeable ... just saying I have quite a backround studying WW2 in general and consider myself very knowledgeable on the subject and capable of debating the various issues concerning the subject ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+285|5464|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

How old are you Shahter?

Reason I'm asking is because I'm 40 and unless you are older than me I doubt you have studied this more than me, not that that itself proves me more knowledgeable ... just saying I have quite a backround studying WW2 in general and consider myself very knowledgeable on the subject and capable of debating the various issues concerning the subject ...
i'm 35.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5100|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:

@FEOS & Varegg: if one conspiracy stood for all those years because "to not believe it meant you would go along with something put out by the nazis", why can't another stand now because "to not believe it means you go along with something put out by the soviets"?
Simply because what we have been nagging about now for several pages: The evidence and all of the evidence, documents, survivors etc etc points to one quite clear conclusion ... Stalin ordered the massacre and NKVD excuted the order.

That's what the evidence points to as THE most plausible explanation.

If however new evidence should come forward that after examination tells another story I will adjust my opinion on the matter, however the chance of something new is so small it's safe to asume the conclusion as of now is the final conclusion ... but I'm not excluding the possibility entirely ...
so, you won't even concede that what could have worked before could just as well work now - for the same reasons, but reflecting different interests?

edit: ah, scratch that. you would concede that. okay, then, as i said, go study more.
Just show the evidence that the Nazis were involved in Katyn and the other sites on the Soviet side of the lines in Poland during the period of the Molotov-Ribbentropp agreement. It's quite simple. You haven't done anything like that yet. Not one single time.

And don't throw out the "you would know if you could read Russian" bullshit. You're the one making the claim that flies in the face of all existing evidence. Thus, the burden is on you to present contradictory evidence that can be independently reviewed by others. If the evidence you present is valid, it will stand on its own after translation. Odd though that the only evidence of Russian innocence in the matter is in Russian, while evidence of Russian complicity is in Polish, German, Russian, etc.

But, just like Varegg, I am objective on the matter. I base my conclusions on the data, not emotion. You have only presented the latter.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+360|2409
I spent 10 minutes looking for this thread but I found it. I bumped this since Larssen and Uzique cucked up the other thread.

The Nazis. Liberals or conservatives?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,812|5461|USA

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Jay wrote:


Read Death Traps
I didn't have time earlier but I was about to ask you if you read that. That's like the default take fresh WW2 enthusiasts have on the tank.
It's actually probably the last WWII book that I've read. I read it after watching Fury and saw that they used it as source material for the movie.
Picking this up from the TV show thread,

People love the Tiger engagement on Fury but it sure was Hollywood. I think the upgunned Shermans at that point could penetrate the front of a Tiger at that range without too much hassle. Also disregarding the "because drama and nobody wants to spend five hours watching tanks play hide and seek," why was the Tiger all alone? Why was it within spitting distance of an enemy force? Why did it become a jousting match. I think it the showboating just contributes to the myth of invincibility. Yes Germany had the Panthers and Tigers, but they also had Panzer IIIs and IVs.
uziq
Member
+302|2141

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I spent 10 minutes looking for this thread but I found it. I bumped this since Larssen and Uzique cucked up the other thread.

The Nazis. Liberals or conservatives?
nazism was a merging/mutually self-serving pact of social conservatism with corporatist economics.

not a single thing about its ideology could be conceived as 'liberal'.

in fact it was in many respects an outward repudiation of much of the weimar republic's liberalism.

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-08 15:07:41)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4047|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:


I didn't have time earlier but I was about to ask you if you read that. That's like the default take fresh WW2 enthusiasts have on the tank.
It's actually probably the last WWII book that I've read. I read it after watching Fury and saw that they used it as source material for the movie.
Picking this up from the TV show thread,

People love the Tiger engagement on Fury but it sure was Hollywood. I think the upgunned Shermans at that point could penetrate the front of a Tiger at that range without too much hassle. Also disregarding the "because drama and nobody wants to spend five hours watching tanks play hide and seek," why was the Tiger all alone? Why was it within spitting distance of an enemy force? Why did it become a jousting match. I think it the showboating just contributes to the myth of invincibility. Yes Germany had the Panthers and Tigers, but they also had Panzer IIIs and IVs.
I think Kelly's Heroes made it the tradition
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,812|5461|USA

@jay

See if you can find a copy of "Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks" by Dmitriy Loza if you're still up for WW2 reading. Possible trigger warnings for new age Sherman bashers or T-34 fanatics.

e: Kelly's Heroes was just for fun though.

e2: Also a fun video:



Yeah yeah, military advisor for a video game company. Take whatever grain of salt you want with it, but it's another angle. In the first segment he introduces himself as an armor officer and then immediately blasts it as not meaningful in this particular argument.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4047|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

@jay

See if you can find a copy of "Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks" by Dmitriy Loza if you're still up for WW2 reading. Possible trigger warnings for new age Sherman bashers or T-34 fanatics.

e: Kelly's Heroes was just for fun though.

e2: Also a fun video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNjp_4jY8pY

Yeah yeah, military advisor for a video game company. Take whatever grain of salt you want with it, but it's another angle. In the first segment he introduces himself as an armor officer and then immediately blasts it as not meaningful in this particular argument.
https://i.imgur.com/rCkRnxc.png

Yikes.

I actually had a lot of fun playing tabletop games ported to pc back in the early 90s. Look up the V for Victory franchise of DOS games. They should be freeware by now. They had Utah Beach, Operation Market Garden, Velukye-Luki (sic), and Gold-Juno-Sword campaigns.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4047|London, England
I also highly recommend this pair of books:
https://www.amazon.com/DAY-Through-Germ … amp;sr=8-1

First hand accounts from the German perspective on D-Day.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+360|2409

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

@jay

See if you can find a copy of "Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks" by Dmitriy Loza if you're still up for WW2 reading. Possible trigger warnings for new age Sherman bashers or T-34 fanatics.

e: Kelly's Heroes was just for fun though.

e2: Also a fun video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNjp_4jY8pY

Yeah yeah, military advisor for a video game company. Take whatever grain of salt you want with it, but it's another angle. In the first segment he introduces himself as an armor officer and then immediately blasts it as not meaningful in this particular argument.
TODO: FIX GAL IMAGES

Yikes.

I actually had a lot of fun playing tabletop games ported to pc back in the early 90s. Look up the V for Victory franchise of DOS games. They should be freeware by now. They had Utah Beach, Operation Market Garden, Velukye-Luki (sic), and Gold-Juno-Sword campaigns.
learn to crop your screen shots Jason from Huntington
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,676|5426|Oxferd
Win + Shift + S
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+360|2409
lol did you google Prussia and wiki M4 Sherman? Also what is that National Review article you are reading. So many questions
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4047|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

@jay

See if you can find a copy of "Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks" by Dmitriy Loza if you're still up for WW2 reading. Possible trigger warnings for new age Sherman bashers or T-34 fanatics.

e: Kelly's Heroes was just for fun though.

e2: Also a fun video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNjp_4jY8pY

Yeah yeah, military advisor for a video game company. Take whatever grain of salt you want with it, but it's another angle. In the first segment he introduces himself as an armor officer and then immediately blasts it as not meaningful in this particular argument.
TODO: FIX GAL IMAGES

Yikes.

I actually had a lot of fun playing tabletop games ported to pc back in the early 90s. Look up the V for Victory franchise of DOS games. They should be freeware by now. They had Utah Beach, Operation Market Garden, Velukye-Luki (sic), and Gold-Juno-Sword campaigns.
learn to crop your screen shots Jason from Huntington
meh, you could look me up by my license if you have my name
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4047|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

lol did you google Prussia and wiki M4 Sherman? Also what is that National Review article you are reading. So many questions
i googled the prussia quote by voltaire earlier just to get it right

yes, m4 sherman

national review is open in my feedly currently
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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