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2011-06-29 00:34:51
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7018|Nårvei

I hate to break it to you Shahter but WW2 is so much more than just Russia/Soviet ...

You have said numerous times that you have not read books by western authors, that does disqualify your opinions about the objectivity of said books, like mentioned several times now ... the further from WW2 we get the more objective the books have become, especially the last decade or two have seen a shitload of books that account for both sides of several issues, best example of this is perhaps Armageddon that describes the Invasion of Normandie and the Russian invasion of Germany from the east ... that book describes the English, French and Americans in a less flattering way than before and actually describes the Russians in a slightly better light than before.

The objectivity is there, maybe not 100% but as good as it gets ... when an incident or issue is guessed upon by the author that is explained very well ...

For one that critizise the western ideology so much you sure show a great lack of insight into your own ideology and what trauma that have caused the Soviet and Russian populace since 1917 ... or is your next argument that everything we know about you guys since 1917 is propaganda?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-29 00:41:14
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6883|Canberra, AUS
I don't understand how you can rate the objectivity of a book that you haven't read.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-06-29 01:29:03
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6924

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:


yeah, yeah, they destroyed all the files, but kept the note. for lulz i guess.
/facepalm
So they destroyed the personal files (not unusual trying to cover up genocide)
So they kept the note (not very unusual for someone in Shelepins position to keep a copy of such a note, his only proof that Khrushchev was ever notified)

Care to comment besides the constant face palming?
of course. have you ever seen any confirmation anywhere that khruschev ever received that document? or replied to it? the "official version" used in the "investigation" is that he gave a verbal go ahead. verbal order. in soviet union. where nobody could as much as fart sideways without putting half a litre of ink to paper. don't make me laugh.

You are on very thin ice here Shahter ... you contribute nothing but silly one liners in response, I thought better of you after reading your posts in other threads ...
i am on thin ice? it not me who's talking about documents he can't even read here.

RAIMUS wrote:

Shahter is still basically saying, "You are wrong, but I won't try to prove it because you don't speak Russian" and others are trying to take him to task for such a weak argument.
shahter is basically saying that maybe maybe you should admit that not everything you are told about ww2 is true. that maybe there a trend in current politics with aim at re-wising the outcome of ww2. that maybe there's info out there you cannot hope to get because nobody bothered to translate it for you. why? - because maybe it would make your "objective and respectable" historians look like ass clowns.
but, as i said, if you wish to keep your head in the sand go right ahead. just don't be surprised when something gets in from behind.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg?1302279173
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2011-06-29 02:22:43
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6314|eXtreme to the maX

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmar wrote:

That's not the same historical context of post WWI Europe. All of the major players, including parts of Czechoslovakia were in agreement.
Says who, apart from you? Not that the Sudetenland was a simple black/white issue.
Sorry what are you saying?

They were appeasing and siding with Nazi Germany just like the rest of Europe.
Siding with Nazi Germany? Are these the same countries who went to war over Poland?
Yes..the same countries could have kicked off over the Sudetenland but didnt as the policy represented WWs vision on National Self Determination. Therefore by choosing not to oppose Hitlers move they appeased / endorsed his actions.

The hell there wasn't some cheering. Austria?
Erm, you know that Germany and Austria were sympathetic pretty early on?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AuPoOCVtSzM/S … people.jpg
Adolf Hitler enter the Sudetenland region, saluted by the local people
Sudetenland was not a simple black/white issue, it was a line on a map drawn at the end of WW1 which did not reflect the reality on the ground - ie making 3 million Germans suddenly Czech - hence the saluting when they were reintegrated.
On 20 September 1918, the Prague Government asked the United States's opinion for the Sudetenland. President Woodrow Wilson sent ambassador Archibald Coolidge into the Czechoslovakia. After Coolidge became witness of Sudetengerman demonstrations (54 killed, among them women and children[2]), Coolidge suggested the possibility of ceding certain German-speaking parts of Bohemia to Germany (Cheb) and Austria (South Moravia and South Bohemia)[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenlan … _aftermath

Damn those appeasing Americans
Fuck Israel
2011-06-29 02:54:36
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6941|Cambridge, England

Dilbert wrote:

Sudetenland was not a simple black/white issue, it was a line on a map drawn at the end of WW1 which did not reflect the reality on the ground - ie making 3 million Germans suddenly Czech - hence the saluting when they were reintegrated.
Thats funny because you are making it sound more and more like a black and white issue. There was a desire at the end of WWI to limit the potential of Germany to declare war on Europe again, this is why the Sudentenland went against the principals of NSD.

Damn those appeasing Americans
What is your point? We've been telling you for 5 pages that the attitudes of Europe and America was appeasement until the outbreak of WWII when they realised it was failing. You have disagreed.
2011-06-29 02:59:06
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6314|eXtreme to the maX
As soon as Hitler did anything which mattered Britain declared war on Germany - Sudetenland and Austria just weren't issues which concerned anyone - America's appeasement continued for a while, and would have been permanent but for Japan.

Not sure what point you're making exactly but carry on.
Fuck Israel
2011-06-29 03:09:21
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6941|Cambridge, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

As soon as Hitler did anything which mattered Britain declared war on Germany - Sudetenland and Austria just weren't issues which concerned anyone - America's appeasement continued for a while, and would have been permanent but for Japan.

Not sure what point you're making exactly but carry on.
Ah yes because the TOV didnt matter at all and allowing Hitler to tear it up (gaining huge popularity) did nothing for the Nazi movement at all.

Weren't issues that concerned anybody? You are unbelievable really. Source?
2011-06-29 03:14:29
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6314|eXtreme to the maX
Re-arming was more significant, and the Nazis were well beyond achieving critical mass by then.
Fuck Israel
2011-06-29 03:36:39
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6941|Cambridge, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Re-arming was more significant, and the Nazis were well beyond achieving critical mass by then.
So you are saying that the Nazis popularity was irrelevant to their WWII successes? Source?

http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&am … mp;bih=663

Rearmament was also against the TOV...

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-06-29 03:40:39)

2011-06-29 03:55:22
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6619|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Shahter wrote:


oh, i'll tell you why: there's no point translating, it's only a part of a document.
so...translate the whole document then?
no point and too much of a hassle. this document is a forgery - all the signatures in pencil on the face of it have been made by one hand, and that is only one of many inconsistencies.
And how exactly do you get that?

So let's go through the list:

[X] You tell me to Google. I do. It comes back 100% against your position.

[X] You tell us you have to speak/read Russian to know the truth. I provide a document in Russian regarding Katyn and ask you to translate it. You know, so we'll know "the truth"...because--according to you--the only way to know the truth about Katyn is to get something in Russian about it. You refuse to translate it because: "it's a partial document" "the signatures are in pencil" (even though it's a scanned copy of something from the National Archives, lol) and you somehow have now become a signature analyst, as well. All of those things somehow prevent you from translating what is on that page. Very odd. Didn't realize Russian was so complex that you couldn't translate a single page without having the completed text, as well. I guess if you're missing a page of "War and Peace" the original Russian and want only a couple of pages translated, or just a paragraph or two, you're seriously fucked, then.

And you've provided exactly the square root of fuckall to support your position.

GG.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-06-29 03:57:10
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6619|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

If other European countries hadn't had the same feelings as Germany about the Jews, they wouldn't have worked with Germany to find a solution to get the Jews out of Europe. Historical fact is not rubbish. It just is. Sorry if it's painful for you.
As I pointed out already, the only countries which 'worked with Germany' were those occupied by Germany - in fact it was the Germans doing most of the work.

Maybe all the people building the Burma railway were really Japanophiles?

According to your logic the US, Canada and Cuba 'worked with Germany' to find a solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
Read pre-war history. This is pre-1939, Dilbert.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-06-29 04:04:29
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6619|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


maybe. unlike most of you, though, i at least can have a look at what both sides of the argument have to back their position up.
So basically your entire argument is that no one can be a valid historian or researcher of WW2 unless they speak Russian?
no, my entire argument is that historians and researchers have an unfortunate tendency of doctoring the data and distorting the info, including that about ww2, and you as a reader have no way of spotting that because you don't speak russian.
Because the Russian historians and researchers didn't possess exactly the same "unfortunate tendency" when they wrote their documents in Russian?

Is that seriously your argument? If so, your argument is invalid, nationalistic bullshit. "Russia, fuck yeah!"
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-06-29 05:17:20
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6314|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

If other European countries hadn't had the same feelings as Germany about the Jews, they wouldn't have worked with Germany to find a solution to get the Jews out of Europe. Historical fact is not rubbish. It just is. Sorry if it's painful for you.
As I pointed out already, the only countries which 'worked with Germany' were those occupied by Germany - in fact it was the Germans doing most of the work.

Maybe all the people building the Burma railway were really Japanophiles?

According to your logic the US, Canada and Cuba 'worked with Germany' to find a solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
Read pre-war history. This is pre-1939, Dilbert.
And which European countries, apart from Germany, rounded up jews before they were invaded?
Fuck Israel
2011-06-29 08:43:42
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6923|US

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

As I pointed out already, the only countries which 'worked with Germany' were those occupied by Germany - in fact it was the Germans doing most of the work.

Maybe all the people building the Burma railway were really Japanophiles?

According to your logic the US, Canada and Cuba 'worked with Germany' to find a solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
Read pre-war history. This is pre-1939, Dilbert.
And which European countries, apart from Germany, rounded up jews before they were invaded?
Pogroms occurred in Russia, Romania, and Poland (and probably a few other places in Europe) prior to WWII.

As far as ground fighting, the Eastern Front made up something like 85-90% of the manpower involved in Europe.  Italy and the African campaigns were side shows.  While they helped split the Wehrmacht, they were not war-winners.
The CBO dropping almost 2.8million tons of explosives and incendiaries on German cities, military infrastructure and units, etc, certainly helped.  Besides tying up much of the Luftwaffe and hindering production, it kept about 1 million personnel from being used elsewhere.

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2011-06-29 08:50:21)

2011-06-29 17:11:28
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6619|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


As I pointed out already, the only countries which 'worked with Germany' were those occupied by Germany - in fact it was the Germans doing most of the work.

Maybe all the people building the Burma railway were really Japanophiles?

According to your logic the US, Canada and Cuba 'worked with Germany' to find a solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
Read pre-war history. This is pre-1939, Dilbert.
And which European countries, apart from Germany, rounded up jews before they were invaded?
And where did I say anything about rounding up Jews?

Again, you need to read more pre-war history. The problems for the Jews started well before they started getting "rounded up" by Germany.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-06-29 17:24:14
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6676
https://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/DoctaStrangelove/01_ironic_invasion.png
2011-06-29 22:42:31
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6984|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

so...translate the whole document then?
no point and too much of a hassle. this document is a forgery - all the signatures in pencil on the face of it have been made by one hand, and that is only one of many inconsistencies.
And how exactly do you get that?

So let's go through the list:

[X] You tell me to Google. I do. It comes back 100% against your position.

[X] You tell us you have to speak/read Russian to know the truth. I provide a document in Russian regarding Katyn and ask you to translate it. You know, so we'll know "the truth"...because--according to you--the only way to know the truth about Katyn is to get something in Russian about it. You refuse to translate it because: "it's a partial document" "the signatures are in pencil" (even though it's a scanned copy of something from the National Archives, lol) and you somehow have now become a signature analyst, as well. All of those things somehow prevent you from translating what is on that page. Very odd. Didn't realize Russian was so complex that you couldn't translate a single page without having the completed text, as well. I guess if you're missing a page of "War and Peace" the original Russian and want only a couple of pages translated, or just a paragraph or two, you're seriously fucked, then.

And you've provided exactly the square root of fuckall to support your position.

GG.
you provided nothing. all you came up with was a bad copy of one page of a document with stuff on it that's not on the original. that's all you can do? k, gtfo.

p.s. there are the original doc's (came up in google). there's the research into the signs of forgery in those documents (came up in google).
p.p.s oh, but of course you couldn't have been able to find any of that yourself, because - surprise! - you don't speak russian. well, too bad.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

So basically your entire argument is that no one can be a valid historian or researcher of WW2 unless they speak Russian?
no, my entire argument is that historians and researchers have an unfortunate tendency of doctoring the data and distorting the info, including that about ww2, and you as a reader have no way of spotting that because you don't speak russian.
Because the Russian historians and researchers didn't possess exactly the same "unfortunate tendency" when they wrote their documents in Russian?
they do. but, unlike you, i can actually examine the evidence they provide myself. and what have you been able to find? - yeah, you already demonstrated that.
GG
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-30 01:05:31
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7018|Nårvei

You display a stupid form of arrogance trying to deflect your lack of knowledge in this Shahter, that shows very well in the way you post ... your ignorance concerning facts, sources and plausibility is scary ... in this one thread you have rendered your credibility on other issues to a minimum.

You really think that those documents haven't been examined by other than Russians that know and speak Russian?

The evidence speaks against you, what holds you back is your faith and not reasoning ...

GG
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-30 01:12:02
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6984|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

You display a stupid form of arrogance trying to deflect your lack of knowledge in this Shahter, that shows very well in the way you post ... your ignorance concerning facts, sources and plausibility is scary ... in this one thread you have rendered your credibility on other issues to a minimum.
do i sound like i care about your opinion about me?

You really think that those documents haven't been examined by other than Russians that know and speak Russian?
they have been. the conclusions made and unwillingness to listen to the irrefutable facts dug up of the opposite side speak for themselves.

The evidence speaks against you
you've no way of telling that - you cannot even examine the evidence.

what holds you back is your faith and not reasoning ...
what holds you back is inability to accept the obvious - you've no idea what you are talking about.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-30 01:35:04
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7018|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

You display a stupid form of arrogance trying to deflect your lack of knowledge in this Shahter, that shows very well in the way you post ... your ignorance concerning facts, sources and plausibility is scary ... in this one thread you have rendered your credibility on other issues to a minimum.
do i sound like i care about your opinion about me?

You really think that those documents haven't been examined by other than Russians that know and speak Russian?
they have been. the conclusions made and unwillingness to listen to the irrefutable facts dug up of the opposite side speak for themselves.

The evidence speaks against you
you've no way of telling that - you cannot even examine the evidence.

what holds you back is your faith and not reasoning ...
what holds you back is inability to accept the obvious - you've no idea what you are talking about.
If it only was my opinion I would agree but it isn't just my opinion ... it's close to being the opinion of everyone ...

Researchers doesn't simply refuse to listen to irrefutable facts or evidence, it's actually yours and the likes of you that refuse to accept the conclusions based on the available evidence, it may come as a surprise to you Shahter but science have actually come so far as to determine if a document is a forgery or not.

Have you ever considered that the facts dug up by people on your side is the forged material?

Nothing holds me back Shahter, I rely on the conclusion of people that actually know what they are talking about and that have the expertise to do the actual research, their conclusion is published either in documents and/or books ... I read those books and only conclude that the material in those books is the most plausible conclusion ...

You have said yourself that you don't read western material even when it's translated, that is admitting you only have a one-sided view of the issue.

And like mentioned before, I have been studying and reading books about WW2 for 30 years, I have noticed the change in that material for the same 30 years, I am quite able to say without a doubt that I do know what I'm talking about.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-30 01:43:38
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6314|eXtreme to the maX

RAIMIUS wrote:

Pogroms occurred in Russia, Romania, and Poland (and probably a few other places in Europe) prior to WWII.
Which still isn't 'europeans cooperating with Germany to achieve the final solution'.
Fuck Israel
2011-06-30 01:46:25
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6984|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

You display a stupid form of arrogance trying to deflect your lack of knowledge in this Shahter, that shows very well in the way you post ... your ignorance concerning facts, sources and plausibility is scary ... in this one thread you have rendered your credibility on other issues to a minimum.
do i sound like i care about your opinion about me?

You really think that those documents haven't been examined by other than Russians that know and speak Russian?
they have been. the conclusions made and unwillingness to listen to the irrefutable facts dug up of the opposite side speak for themselves.

The evidence speaks against you
you've no way of telling that - you cannot even examine the evidence.

what holds you back is your faith and not reasoning ...
what holds you back is inability to accept the obvious - you've no idea what you are talking about.
If it only was my opinion I would agree but it isn't just my opinion ... it's close to being the opinion of everyone ...
do i sound like i care about the opinion of me held by anybody on these forums? i'm an "evil commie" ffs, why would i be here if i cared about that?

Researchers doesn't simply refuse to listen to irrefutable facts or evidence, it's actually yours and the likes of you that refuse to accept the conclusions based on the available evidence, it may come as a surprise to you Shahter but science have actually come so far as to determine if a document is a forgery or not.
no, they didn't.

Have you ever considered that the facts dug up by people on your side is the forged material?
yes.

You have said yourself that you don't read western material even when it's translated
no i didn't. i only admitted that it's very hard for me. history is a mean beast to study even in ones own language. in this regard, we are both only - well... mostly - looking at the big picture from certain perspective.

And like mentioned before, I have been studying and reading books about WW2 for 30 years, I have noticed the change in that material for the same 30 years, I am quite able to say without a doubt that I do know what I'm talking about.
go on. study more.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-30 01:46:38
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6314|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Read pre-war history. This is pre-1939, Dilbert.
And which European countries, apart from Germany, rounded up jews before they were invaded?
And where did I say anything about rounding up Jews?
About here:

FEOS wrote:

If other European countries hadn't had the same feelings as Germany about the Jews, they wouldn't have worked with Germany to find a solution to get the Jews out of Europe.
Again, you need to read more pre-war history. The problems for the Jews started well before they started getting "rounded up" by Germany.
Every minority has been persecuted at one time or another, the jews think they're a special case - they're not.
Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, Homosexuals etc etc
Fuck Israel
2011-06-30 02:19:53
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7018|Nårvei

Firstly I didn't limit the phrase to this forum when I said it basically is every ones opinion.

Secondly nobody thinks you are an evil commie, at least nobody have expressed it to my knowledge and if they did it's totally unheard of ...

Thirdly I study this subject continuously, one never really stop reading books about ones favorite subject ...

Fourthly (if that is even a word) yes they have ... science have the ability to determine forged documents.

Fifthly ... stop being so fucking paranoid about this, nobody is out to get you ... it's a debate and thus far your debating skills on this subject have been nothing but poor in this thread. You've made a couple of posts on this page that's more like your normal standard for the first time in this thread ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-30 02:46:03
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6984|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

Firstly I didn't limit the phrase to this forum when I said it basically is every ones opinion.

Secondly nobody thinks you are an evil commie, at least nobody have expressed it to my knowledge and if they did it's totally unheard of ...

Thirdly I study this subject continuously, one never really stop reading books about ones favorite subject ...

Fourthly (if that is even a word) yes they have ... science have the ability to determine forged documents.

Fifthly ... stop being so fucking paranoid about this, nobody is out to get you ... it's a debate and thus far your debating skills on this subject have been nothing but poor in this thread. You've made a couple of posts on this page that's more like your normal standard for the first time in this thread ...
dude... how to phrase that... i'm not lowing. i'm not provoked by your condescending tone, i don't think anybody's out to get me and i don't give a flying fuck about your endless popularity contests.

"everyone's" opinion has a tendency to change - i live in russia, ffs, i know that all too well. i also know the usual reasons for that change, and truth and objective research are far from being major factors.

and yes, science has the ability to determine forged documents. all the more reasons to wonder why so many obvious sighs of forgery have been overlooked in this case. because even if a small fracture of what's been reported is true, all the conclusions made by "objective researchers" sould go to hell in an instant.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

 

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