Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Kmar wrote:

A general consensus among those involved. This is exhibited by the very fact that it happened. It is logical to conclude that if Canada was ceding territory to the US then Canada would have been given the authority to do so.
Thats nothing remotely like what happened.
If Canada signed a treaty agreeing not to attack China if they invaded Taiwan would you conclude America had given them the authority to do so? o.O

Says history. Naturally since Britain and France were the only ones capable of real and decisive action against Hitler, they were the only ones with bargaining leverage.
Says nothing, that two military powers signed a treaty doesn't mean the rest of Europe eithe agreed or gave them 'authority' to do so.

What I've challenge is the notion that other European powers bore no responsibility in Hitler's rapid rise. Europe was either giving concessions, cheering annexation, or was attempting to sign alliances. Together this all encouraged Hitler. When the leading powers of Europe failed diplomatically Europe as a whole failed.
No-one was cheering annexation, the Sudetenland wasn't a black and white question for a start.

'Europe as a whole' did not exist, any more than Asia is a unified alliance of any kind.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

If other European countries hadn't had the same feelings as Germany about the Jews, they wouldn't have worked with Germany to find a solution to get the Jews out of Europe. Historical fact is not rubbish. It just is. Sorry if it's painful for you.
As I pointed out already, the only countries which 'worked with Germany' were those occupied by Germany - in fact it was the Germans doing most of the work.

Maybe all the people building the Burma railway were really Japanophiles?

According to your logic the US, Canada and Cuba 'worked with Germany' to find a solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

Aleksandr Shelepin's 3 March 1959 note to Khrushchev, with information about the execution of 21,857 Poles and with the proposal to destroy their personal files.) retrieved on 12 December 2010
yeah, yeah, they destroyed all the files, but kept the note. for lulz i guess.
/facepalm
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmar wrote:

A general consensus among those involved. This is exhibited by the very fact that it happened. It is logical to conclude that if Canada was ceding territory to the US then Canada would have been given the authority to do so.
Thats nothing remotely like what happened.
If Canada signed a treaty agreeing not to attack China if they invaded Taiwan would you conclude America had given them the authority to do so? o.O
That's not the same historical context of post WWI Europe. All of the major players, including parts of Czechoslovakia were in agreement.
Says history. Naturally since Britain and France were the only ones capable of real and decisive action against Hitler, they were the only ones with bargaining leverage.
Says nothing, that two military powers signed a treaty doesn't mean the rest of Europe either agreed or gave them 'authority' to do so.
They were appeasing and siding with Nazi Germany just like the rest of Europe. Do you think Hitler was going to bargain with the smaller powers? Tell me why Hitler was talking to Britain about Czechoslovakia.
What I've challenge is the notion that other European powers bore no responsibility in Hitler's rapid rise. Europe was either giving concessions, cheering annexation, or was attempting to sign alliances. Together this all encouraged Hitler. When the leading powers of Europe failed diplomatically Europe as a whole failed.
No-one was cheering annexation, the Sudetenland wasn't a black and white question for a start.
The hell there wasn't some cheering. Austria?

'Europe as a whole' did not exist, any more than Asia is a unified alliance of any kind.
  • Europe was either giving concessions, cheering annexation, or was attempting to sign alliances. Together this all encouraged Hitler. When the leading powers of Europe failed diplomatically Europe as a whole failed.
You don't see a single trend there?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5555

So has the U.S. ever confirmed or denied it worked with the mafia during WW2 as Lucky Luciano and others claim? And if so what was the extent of the cooperation? Was it worth letting Luciano out of prison?

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-06-28 06:39:19)

Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6702|Cambridge, England

Varegg wrote:

Aleksandr Shelepin's 3 March 1959 note to Khrushchev, with information about the execution of 21,857 Poles and with the proposal to destroy their personal files.) retrieved on 12 December 2010

Russian documents: http://rusarchives.ru/publication/katyn/05.shtml

The English version can be found inside this document: http://law.case.edu/lectures/files/2010 … a_docs.pdf
From the 2nd link

Politburo Protocol no. 3 on Measures to Counteract Western Propaganda on the Katyn Question

...

4. The KGB USSR should, through unofficial channels, make it clear to persons in government circles of appropriate Western countries that the renewed use of various anti-Soviet forgeries is seen by the Soviet government as especially intentional provocation aimed at worsening the international situation

...
Seems Shahter is just repeating the party line then.

Woah wait, surely this is dead easy Shahter just has to account for where all these people that didnt die went.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-06-28 06:48:26)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Seems Shahter is just repeating the party line then.
and that should never ever be done, because that party through all its history has done nothing right whatsoever.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6702|Cambridge, England

Shahter wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Seems Shahter is just repeating the party line then.
and that should never ever be done, because that party through all its history has done nothing right whatsoever.
So are you supporting their findings or not?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Kmar wrote:

That's not the same historical context of post WWI Europe. All of the major players, including parts of Czechoslovakia were in agreement.
Says who, apart from you? Not that the Sudetenland was a simple black/white issue.

They were appeasing and siding with Nazi Germany just like the rest of Europe.
Siding with Nazi Germany? Are these the same countries who went to war over Poland?

The hell there wasn't some cheering. Austria?
Erm, you know that Germany and Austria were sympathetic pretty early on?

EurEurope was either giving concessions, cheering annexation, or was attempting to sign alliances. Together this all encouraged Hitler. When the leading powers of Europe failed diplomatically Europe as a whole failed.
You don't see a single trend there?
There was no 'trend', 'Europe as a whole' has never existed, you know each country speaks its own language for a start? (Apart from Germany and Austria...)

You might as well say Asia as a whole failed' and cite Vietnam as proof.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-06-28 07:01:16)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6780|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Aleksandr Shelepin's 3 March 1959 note to Khrushchev, with information about the execution of 21,857 Poles and with the proposal to destroy their personal files.) retrieved on 12 December 2010
yeah, yeah, they destroyed all the files, but kept the note. for lulz i guess.
/facepalm
So they destroyed the personal files (not unusual trying to cover up genocide)
So they kept the note (not very unusual for someone in Shelepins position to keep a copy of such a note, his only proof that Khrushchev was ever notified)

Care to comment besides the constant face palming?

You are on very thin ice here Shahter ... you contribute nothing but silly one liners in response, I thought better of you after reading your posts in other threads ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6780|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Seems Shahter is just repeating the party line then.
and that should never ever be done, because that party through all its history has done nothing right whatsoever.
And how did you come up with that conclusion? ... I can't remember anyone in this thread saying that, but I'm starting to understand where you are coming from ... must be hard for a communist to admit that the ideology he followed all his life didn't really work as intended.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6702|Cambridge, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmar wrote:

That's not the same historical context of post WWI Europe. All of the major players, including parts of Czechoslovakia were in agreement.
Says who, apart from you? Not that the Sudetenland was a simple black/white issue.
Sorry what are you saying?

They were appeasing and siding with Nazi Germany just like the rest of Europe.
Siding with Nazi Germany? Are these the same countries who went to war over Poland?
Yes..the same countries could have kicked off over the Sudetenland but didnt as the policy represented WWs vision on National Self Determination. Therefore by choosing not to oppose Hitlers move they appeased / endorsed his actions.

The hell there wasn't some cheering. Austria?
Erm, you know that Germany and Austria were sympathetic pretty early on?
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AuPoOCVtSzM/SzdzlLe4pbI/AAAAAAAAA0c/Q-Pxg5_S8vA/s400/Hitler+enter+the+Sudetenland+region,+saluted+by+the+local+people.jpg
Adolf Hitler enter the Sudetenland region, saluted by the local people



EurEurope was either giving concessions, cheering annexation, or was attempting to sign alliances. Together this all encouraged Hitler. When the leading powers of Europe failed diplomatically Europe as a whole failed.
You don't see a single trend there?
There was no 'trend', 'Europe as a whole' has never existed, you know each country speaks its own language for a start? (Apart from Germany and Austria...)

You might as well say Asia as a whole failed' and cite Vietnam as proof.
srsly? Do you have any european knowledge at all?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmar wrote:

That's not the same historical context of post WWI Europe. All of the major players, including parts of Czechoslovakia were in agreement.
Says who, apart from you? Not that the Sudetenland was a simple black/white issue.
Says German speaking Czechs.
They were appeasing and siding with Nazi Germany just like the rest of Europe.
Siding with Nazi Germany? Are these the same countries who went to war over Poland?
Yes the very same people who ended up going to war once they finally realized that their failed policy of appeasement wasn't working.
The hell there wasn't some cheering. Austria?
Erm, you know that Germany and Austria were sympathetic pretty early on?
Is Erm your way of admitting you were wrong? You said nobody was cheering annexation. I showed you archival footage of Austrians cheering German troops as they marched through their cities upon annexation. What else do you need?

Kmar wrote:

Tell me why Hitler was talking to Britain about Czechoslovakia.
?
EurEurope was either giving concessions, cheering annexation, or was attempting to sign alliances. Together this all encouraged Hitler. When the leading powers of Europe failed diplomatically Europe as a whole failed.
You don't see a single trend there?
There was no 'trend', 'Europe as a whole' has never existed, you know each country speaks its own language for a start? (Apart from Germany and Austria...)
You might as well say Asia as a whole failed' and cite Vietnam as proof.
Vietnam is a ridiculous comparison. As most people know it was a war of proxy. There absolutely was a trend amongst the major powers of Europe. This is what people generally mean when they talk about the European pre-war talks. The trend, since you apparently aren't getting it, was to avoid war by either siding with or giving in to Hitlers will. The language each country speaks is only relevant in the fact that Hitlers stated goal was to unite all German speaking people.

I really don't understand what you are getting at. It would seem you're squirming over semantics whilst I am discussing the meaningful dialogue between relevant powers. I was hoping this exchange would become something interesting. Instead you keep making silly comparisons of Mexico, Canada, China, and Vietnam.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
Is it safe to re-enter yet?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5969|...
I don't know. I left halfway

I'm getting tired of this section
inane little opines
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6684|US
Nope.

Shahter is still basically saying, "You are wrong, but I won't try to prove it because you don't speak Russian" and others are trying to take him to task for such a weak argument.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Aleksandr Shelepin's 3 March 1959 note to Khrushchev, with information about the execution of 21,857 Poles and with the proposal to destroy their personal files.) retrieved on 12 December 2010
yeah, yeah, they destroyed all the files, but kept the note. for lulz i guess.
/facepalm
So they destroyed the personal files (not unusual trying to cover up genocide)
So they kept the note (not very unusual for someone in Shelepins position to keep a copy of such a note, his only proof that Khrushchev was ever notified)

Care to comment besides the constant face palming?
of course. have you ever seen any confirmation anywhere that khruschev ever received that document? or replied to it? the "official version" used in the "investigation" is that he gave a verbal go ahead. verbal order. in soviet union. where nobody could as much as fart sideways without putting half a litre of ink to paper. don't make me laugh.

You are on very thin ice here Shahter ... you contribute nothing but silly one liners in response, I thought better of you after reading your posts in other threads ...
i am on thin ice? it not me who's talking about documents he can't even read here.

RAIMUS wrote:

Shahter is still basically saying, "You are wrong, but I won't try to prove it because you don't speak Russian" and others are trying to take him to task for such a weak argument.
shahter is basically saying that maybe maybe you should admit that not everything you are told about ww2 is true. that maybe there a trend in current politics with aim at re-wising the outcome of ww2. that maybe there's info out there you cannot hope to get because nobody bothered to translate it for you. why? - because maybe it would make your "objective and respectable" historians look like ass clowns.
but, as i said, if you wish to keep your head in the sand go right ahead. just don't be surprised when something gets in from behind.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6118|'straya

Shahter wrote:

shahter is basically saying that maybe maybe you should admit that not everything you are told about ww2 is true.
maybe you should take your own advice.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

shahter is basically saying that maybe maybe you should admit that not everything you are told about ww2 is true.
maybe you should take your own advice.
maybe. unlike most of you, though, i at least can have a look at what both sides of the argument have to back their position up.

Last edited by Shahter (2011-06-28 22:47:00)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6118|'straya

Shahter wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

shahter is basically saying that maybe maybe you should admit that not everything you are told about ww2 is true.
maybe you should take your own advice.
maybe. unlike most of you, though, i at least can have a look at what both sides of the argument have to back their position up.
So basically your entire argument is that no one can be a valid historian or researcher of WW2 unless they speak Russian?

Great, now we have got that out of the way, lets move on with the thread.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

maybe you should take your own advice.
maybe. unlike most of you, though, i at least can have a look at what both sides of the argument have to back their position up.
So basically your entire argument is that no one can be a valid historian or researcher of WW2 unless they speak Russian?
no, my entire argument is that historians and researchers have an unfortunate tendency of doctoring the data and distorting the info, including that about ww2, and you as a reader have no way of spotting that because you don't speak russian.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5969|...
I don't see the logic in doctoring history about a union that has collapsed. There's no point to it whatsoever, hence I very much doubt it happened.
inane little opines
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

Shocking wrote:

I don't see the logic in doctoring history about a union that has collapsed. There's no point to it whatsoever, hence I very much doubt it happened.
/sigh
i pointed this several times in this very thread: the results of ww2 and the role different nations played in starting it in the first place - that's the aim. if nothing else, russia inherited lot of stuff, territory included, from soviet union. also, russia's position in modern history and politics is defined to a large extent by its role in ww2. there are those who'd want all that changed.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5969|...

Shahter wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Pretty well no-one, including various Russian govts, is in much doubt about the Katyn massacre.
Not sure what the point of denying it is really.
gorbachev and his crew ordered people working in the archives to forge the evidence.
It was Gorbachev!

If it were forged I'm sure the Kremlin would stop acknowledging and commemorating the massacre.
inane little opines
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

Shocking wrote:

If it were forged I'm sure the Kremlin would stop acknowledging and commemorating the massacre.
kremlin is not what it used to be was back in soviet times, unfortunately. those clowns are happy to pump the oil and do fuck all about anything else, including soviet heritage. there are many political groups that do not acknowledge that katyn-shit, and not all of those are "evil commies". still, current russian government has the parliament by the balls - they do as they are told, even it means letting them be screwed from behind.

Last edited by Shahter (2011-06-28 23:46:11)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

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