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2011-06-27 06:46:18
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6811|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Western historians--in general--do not do this.

Varegg wrote:

@Shahter: Like FEOS mentioned in the post just above this one ... historians have not sugarcoted the Nazis in any way
of course they don't. the only thing they do is continuously draw parallels between nazies and soviets - those, who actually destroyed nazies and who's ideology was completely opposite of that of nazies. but other than that - yeah, completely objective.

/facepalm
Can you mention any books or papers that proves your point because I've read litterature about WW2 for 30 years now and have yet to experience what you describe ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-27 08:30:39
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6412|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Anti-semitism in Europe and America had everyone (including the UK) turning a blind eye to the pre-Holocaust Nazi purges of Jews. In fact, European countries were working actively with Germany to find a "new homeland" for the Jews outside of Europe. IIRC, Madagascar was seriously considered as an option.
Fixed.

American anti-semiticism continued well into the fifties, with Greek and Italian peasants being given preferential immigration treatment over educated jews.

Germany didn't want the jews, Europe didn't want the jews, Britain didn't want the jews, America didn't want the jews, Palestine didn't want the jews, Madagascar didn't want the jews.
The 'Final Solution' was just that, the 'solution' to the problem of no-one on earth wanting them, no-ones hands are clean in this, not even America's.
Why do you emphasize America when everything regarding the Jews was happening in Europe? Way to deflect ownership of the problem.

Had Europe not been intent on purging the Jews from Europe, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Nor would we be having multiple derails about Israel and Palestine.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-06-27 08:32:50
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5038|Massachusetts, USA

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Anti-semitism in Europe and America had everyone (including the UK) turning a blind eye to the pre-Holocaust Nazi purges of Jews. In fact, European countries were working actively with Germany to find a "new homeland" for the Jews outside of Europe. IIRC, Madagascar was seriously considered as an option.
Fixed.

American anti-semiticism continued well into the fifties, with Greek and Italian peasants being given preferential immigration treatment over educated jews.

Germany didn't want the jews, Europe didn't want the jews, Britain didn't want the jews, America didn't want the jews, Palestine didn't want the jews, Madagascar didn't want the jews.
The 'Final Solution' was just that, the 'solution' to the problem of no-one on earth wanting them, no-ones hands are clean in this, not even America's.
Why do you emphasize America when everything regarding the Jews was happening in Europe? Way to deflect ownership of the problem.

Had Europe not been intent on purging the Jews from Europe, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Nor would we be having multiple derails about Israel and Palestine.
So you're saying we should have let them all die...........
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2011-06-27 08:34:17
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6412|'Murka

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Western historians--in general--do not do this.

Varegg wrote:

@Shahter: Like FEOS mentioned in the post just above this one ... historians have not sugarcoted the Nazis in any way
of course they don't. the only thing they do is continuously draw parallels between nazies and soviets - those, who actually destroyed nazies and who's ideology was completely opposite of that of nazies. but other than that - yeah, completely objective.

/facepalm
Can you mention any books or papers that proves your point because I've read litterature about WW2 for 30 years now and have yet to experience what you describe ...
^This.

Parallels are drawn between Hitler and Stalin. And Mao and Hitler. And Mao and Stalin. And Pol Pot and Hitler, etc. All dictators who oppressed their people and killed millions of them for various reasons. That's not the same as comparing Nazis to Soviets...except for the ideologies of the various individuals being compared.

Nice that you throw in that bit about "those who actually destroyed the Nazis" again, though.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-06-27 08:34:57
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6412|'Murka

UnkleRukus wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


Fixed.

American anti-semiticism continued well into the fifties, with Greek and Italian peasants being given preferential immigration treatment over educated jews.

Germany didn't want the jews, Europe didn't want the jews, Britain didn't want the jews, America didn't want the jews, Palestine didn't want the jews, Madagascar didn't want the jews.
The 'Final Solution' was just that, the 'solution' to the problem of no-one on earth wanting them, no-ones hands are clean in this, not even America's.
Why do you emphasize America when everything regarding the Jews was happening in Europe? Way to deflect ownership of the problem.

Had Europe not been intent on purging the Jews from Europe, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Nor would we be having multiple derails about Israel and Palestine.
So you're saying we should have let them all die...........
No. I'm actually saying the exact opposite.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-06-27 08:36:44
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5260|foggy bottom
dilbert, again, although anti semitism was higher than it is now, it was not a significant factor for the government.  jews already owned hollywood and the banks with no problem.
Tu Stultus Es
2011-06-27 22:13:21
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6777|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Western historians--in general--do not do this.

Varegg wrote:

@Shahter: Like FEOS mentioned in the post just above this one ... historians have not sugarcoted the Nazis in any way
of course they don't. the only thing they do is continuously draw parallels between nazies and soviets - those, who actually destroyed nazies and who's ideology was completely opposite of that of nazies. but other than that - yeah, completely objective.

/facepalm
Can you mention any books or papers that proves your point because I've read litterature about WW2 for 30 years now and have yet to experience what you describe ...
orly? over those 30 years you haven't heard hitler compared to stalin? you haven't heard soviet regime compared to nazies? you haven't picked up on all the subtle little things - cultural and societal - being compared between soviets and nazies in light of western - and thus, completely incompatible with either ideology - values? then for 30 years now you've been reading literature about ww2 and understanding nothing. i can't help you.

@FEOS: oh, i get it. comparing stalin to hitler is not comparing soviets to nazies now? wow. somebody should go refresh his memory on what "authoritarian regime" means.

Last edited by Shahter (2011-06-27 22:14:08)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-27 22:15:48
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

I'm pretty sure the ideologies are diametrically opposed to each other.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-06-27 23:22:48
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6777|Moscow, Russia

Kmar wrote:

I'm pretty sure the ideologies are diametrically opposed to each other.
of course they are. yet they are being constantly compared. not directly of course, that would be nigh impossible, but by looking at the events of ww2. nazies attacked ussr - zomg, but ussr was about to attack nazies! nazies killed millions of people - zomg, but soviets killed a lot of people too. nazies used slave labor - zomg, soviets sent people to gulags! the katyn incident re-visited recently and it's outrageous "resolution". none of that would stand for a second under any sort of critical research, but who the hell bothers with that? history is like a septic tank - the biggest turds always raise to the top and that's what all the shifties and war mans get - the "zomg, soviets were like nazies" crap.

there is a whole trend aimed, no doubt, at re-wising the outcome of ww2 and shifting the blame for starting it in the first place. it's exceedingly apparent imo, but if people insist on keeping their heads in the sand, who am i to tell them otherwise?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-28 00:01:27
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

I know they are Shat.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-06-28 00:08:26
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

FEOS wrote:

Kmar wrote:

FEOS wrote:

What Shahter doesn't understand is the strength of the pacifist/isolationist movement in the US during the interwar years. Roosevelt was doing everything he could to help the European powers short of committing forces, which he couldn't do because of said movement. In fact, that movement was pushing to hold Roosevelt accountable for the aid we were providing, which led to Lend Lease (as opposed to just "giving it away"). It was a tightrope Roosevelt was walking (irony, I know), and until Japan attacked, he was perilously close to Congress revolting against him because of it. He worked much of it "backchannel" through the War Department so that Congress and the public wouldn't notice.
Pick this up and read it.
http://www.amazon.com/Churchill-Hitler- … 030740515X

Try not to have a Brain Hemorrhage.
Human Smoke touches on much of the same material, as it focuses on the pacifist movement and how that led the US to turn a blind eye to much of what was going on in Europe pre-Pearl Harbor.
I haven't read that one. I was unable to take the author and this book's proposition serious after hearing Phil Hendrie school him on his show.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-06-28 00:18:43
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6811|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

orly? over those 30 years you haven't heard hitler compared to stalin? you haven't heard soviet regime compared to nazies? you haven't picked up on all the subtle little things - cultural and societal - being compared between soviets and nazies in light of western - and thus, completely incompatible with either ideology - values? then for 30 years now you've been reading literature about ww2 and understanding nothing. i can't help you.
You make the most hilarious assumptions.

I have come across Hitler being compared to Stalin yes but not as an own subject and not as to prove a point as to how cruel Stalin was in comparison, I have never come across in any books that historians tried to badmouth Russia's contributions in WW2.

With that said I have read the biography about Stalin written by a western historian, it was a very good but a tedious read ... Stalin did some good things for Russia but very few good things for the Russians and even fewer good things if any at all for the rest of the Soviet populace.

Like most other leaders of Russia/Soviet since 1917 he enforced a communist system enriching a few on behalf of the many ... Stalin was without a doubt on top of the list of committing crimes against humanity over a long period of time. As was Hitler in his reign over Europe.

I see no point in comparing dictators up against each other and very few historians have done just that, they analyse each man and judge him based on his actions ... they did that with Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Petain etc etc etc

If anyone is trying to make a comparison here it is you in an attempt to sugar cote Stalin ... if anyone reeks of propaganda it is you, if anyone have a hard time understanding this subject it is you.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-28 00:46:26
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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Shahter wrote:

of course they are. yet they are being constantly compared. not directly of course, that would be nigh impossible,
Okay ... so now you are saying they are not directly compared but rather snuck into the text without the reader noticing it?

Shahter wrote:

but by looking at the events of ww2. nazies attacked ussr - zomg, but ussr was about to attack nazies!
I have yet to read anything that states Soviet was about to attack the Nazis, the Nazis and Hitler in particular was afraid of Soviet and Bolshevism was besides the Jews their number one fear and concern.

Shahter wrote:

nazies killed millions of people - zomg, but soviets killed a lot of people too.
Yes Stalin was in charge and responsible for killing millions, that doesn't take away the fact or diminish that Hitler and the Nazis killed millions, it doesn't exclude the fact that they both killed millions ...

Shahter wrote:

nazies used slave labor - zomg, soviets sent people to gulags!
Yes ... both did that, and no books I've read used the one to excuse the other ...

Shahter wrote:

history is like a septic tank - the biggest turds always raise to the top and that's what all the shifties and war mans get - the "zomg, soviets were like nazies" crap.
You have to make a distinct difference between what some members on this forum spew out and the work of credible authors/historians ...

Shahter wrote:

there is a whole trend aimed, no doubt, at re-wising the outcome of ww2 and shifting the blame for starting it in the first place. it's exceedingly apparent imo, but if people insist on keeping their heads in the sand, who am i to tell them otherwise?
What trend? ... who is revisionist about the outcome of WW2? ... shifting the blame for who started it in the first place, who is doing that? ... is someone trying to pin the start of WW2 on Stalin? ... if that's what you think I hope you have some answers to these pretty straight forward questions?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-28 00:56:25
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6811|Nårvei

And about the Katyn massacre, it has been documented and admitted ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-28 00:57:34
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6777|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

I have never come across in any books that historians tried to badmouth Russia's contributions in WW2
...
Stalin did some good things for Russia but very few good things for the Russians and even fewer good things if any at all for the rest of the Soviet populace.
...
Like most other leaders of Russia/Soviet since 1917 he enforced a communist system enriching a few on behalf of the many
...
I have yet to read anything that states Soviet was about to attack the Nazis
...
What trend? ... who is revisionist about the outcome of WW2? ... shifting the blame for who started it in the first place, who is doing that? ... is someone trying to pin the start of WW2 on Stalin? ... if that's what you think I hope you have some answers to these pretty straight forward questions?
as i said, i can't help you. maybe in another 30 years...
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-28 00:58:22
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6107|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Why do you emphasize America when everything regarding the Jews was happening in Europe? Way to deflect ownership of the problem.

Had Europe not been intent on purging the Jews from Europe, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Nor would we be having multiple derails about Israel and Palestine.
The Nazis were intent on purging the jews from Europe, they weren't purged from anywhere which wasn't under direct Nazi control were they?

Were European countries purging the jews before or after the Nazis came and went?

No?

You're talking rubbish.

The fact is the Germans wanted them out and no other country one earth, including America and many others, wanted them.

German jews weren't Spain's problem, French jews weren't Switerland's problem, Polish jews weren't Ireland's problem any more than European jews were America's problem to deal with.

'Europe' didn't really exist as any kind of entity back then any more than North and South America share liability for each others problems now.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2011-06-28 01:00:15
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6811|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

I have never come across in any books that historians tried to badmouth Russia's contributions in WW2
...
Stalin did some good things for Russia but very few good things for the Russians and even fewer good things if any at all for the rest of the Soviet populace.
...
Like most other leaders of Russia/Soviet since 1917 he enforced a communist system enriching a few on behalf of the many
...
I have yet to read anything that states Soviet was about to attack the Nazis
...
What trend? ... who is revisionist about the outcome of WW2? ... shifting the blame for who started it in the first place, who is doing that? ... is someone trying to pin the start of WW2 on Stalin? ... if that's what you think I hope you have some answers to these pretty straight forward questions?
as i said, i can't help you. maybe in another 30 years...
Please elaborate ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-28 01:08:23
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:

'Europe' didn't really exist as any kind of entity back then any more than North and South America share liability for each others problems now.
That is simply not true. See Munich Agreement.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-06-28 01:09:49
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6777|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

And about the Katyn massacre, it has been documented and admitted ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
to anybody with a modicum of common sense it's obvious that the "documents" have been forged, as it's been proven by a special commission assembled by what's left of communist party in russian parliament. "admission" was voted in by a bunch of fucking turds we have for the parliament now - not a single historian among them - disregarding all the findings. the info is out there, but, as i said, you are welcome to keep shewing on that line of crap you are fed.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-28 01:27:29
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6107|eXtreme to the maX

Kmar wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

'Europe' didn't really exist as any kind of entity back then any more than North and South America share liability for each others problems now.
That is simply not true. See Munich Agreement.
Wut?

Four countries sign one - temporary - treaty and Europe is united?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2011-06-28 01:35:21
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6811|Nårvei

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

And about the Katyn massacre, it has been documented and admitted ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
to anybody with a modicum of common sense it's obvious that the "documents" have been forged, as it's been proven by a special commission assembled by what's left of communist party in russian parliament. "admission" was voted in by a bunch of fucking turds we have for the parliament now - not a single historian among them - disregarding all the findings. the info is out there, but, as i said, you are welcome to keep shewing on that line of crap you are fed.
Why is it obvious, because you say so?

Where is the proof by the special commision?

What proof out there, on what cloud is it hidden?

And the fucking turds in the parliament was voted in by you amongst others, one have the government one deserves ...

You have nothing Shahter but short comments you can't back up with neither proof or sources, you are the one with a problem here that continue loosing credibilty for every post you make ... not me!

The crap I'm fed is well documented and proven time and time again!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-28 01:40:46
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6777|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Varegg wrote:

And about the Katyn massacre, it has been documented and admitted ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
to anybody with a modicum of common sense it's obvious that the "documents" have been forged, as it's been proven by a special commission assembled by what's left of communist party in russian parliament. "admission" was voted in by a bunch of fucking turds we have for the parliament now - not a single historian among them - disregarding all the findings. the info is out there, but, as i said, you are welcome to keep shewing on that line of crap you are fed.
Why is it obvious, because you say so?

Where is the proof by the special commision?

What proof out there, on what cloud is it hidden?

You have nothing Shahter but short comments you can't back up with neither proof or sources, you are the one with a problem here that continue loosing credibilty for every post you make ... not me!
do you speak russian? no? then you cannot even read those documents. hello there.

The crap I'm fed is well documented and proven time and time again!
wikipedia? "proven time and time again"?
/facepalm

and this:
And the fucking turds in the parliament was voted in by you amongst others, one have the government one deserves ...
is simply lol.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-06-28 01:51:39
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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^^ I give up ... your reasoning is beyond me, you argue like lowing and deflects any direct questions just like him ... that's just incredible!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-06-28 02:00:40
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6107|eXtreme to the maX
Pretty well no-one, including various Russian govts, is in much doubt about the Katyn massacre.
Not sure what the point of denying it is really.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2011-06-28 02:10:23
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6777|Moscow, Russia

Dilbert_X wrote:

Pretty well no-one, including various Russian govts, is in much doubt about the Katyn massacre.
Not sure what the point of denying it is really.
gorbachev and his crew ordered people working in the archives to forge the evidence. fortunately, those people were a good bunch - or maybe simply incompetent - and left a lot of undeniable traces of forgery. is there a point in bringing that to everybody's attention? i dunno. i'll let you answer that question for yourself.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

 

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