I will vote for whoever promises to regulate these two businesses

2011-06-03 19:43:22

#26

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6651|'Murka

Uzique wrote:
i could give a shit how my school does in the sports leagues. my future employers won't favour me because my alma mater had a neat mascot.

School tradition actually has a lot of meaning here in the States, and sports plays a large role in that. Of course, that's the social part of employment, which isn't as critical, but all other aspects being equal...

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-06-03 19:44:44

#27

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6710

school tradition over here is huge, too... english universities invented that sort of academic elitism. ours seemed to be focussed more on academia and social privilege, though, instead of sports. i just don't see how sports have any thing to do with 'education' or career opportunity outside of professional sports.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-06-03 19:50:56

#28

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6651|'Murka

Uzique wrote:
school tradition over here is huge, too... english universities invented that sort of academic elitism. ours seemed to be focussed more on academia and social privilege, though, instead of sports. i just don't see how sports have any thing to do with 'education' or career opportunity outside of professional sports.

It plays into the overall tradition of the school. Academia and social privilege do for some (think Ivy League--sports certainly aren't their forte), but for others, even if they have excellent academic programs, they are nationally known by all for winning championships in various sports. As much as some want to argue otherwise, often success in sports leads to solid academic programs. Maybe not for the athletes involved, but they bring notoriety for the schools, and thus funding for academic programs.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-06-03 19:52:45

#29

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6710

i suppose in america you have about 5x as many higher-education institutions so strictly academic rankings mean less and less to a broader range of prospective students...

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-06-03 19:54:28

#30

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6737

we have more dumbasses too, that hijack on mommy and daddy's retirement fund

2011-06-03 20:03:01

#31

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6777|Long Island, New York

Macbeth wrote:
I don't know anyone who picked a school in part because of it's sports team. Everyone I know decided on cost, distance, education value, degree field etc. Sports team? School spirit? What are we 12?

You have to be living in a hole to think a good portion of college kids didn't choose their school because of school pride, sports teams and partying. Why else would someone go get a degree in childhood education at freaking Penn State? If everyone chose schools because of what you listed, there probably wouldn't be any out of state kids at big state schools.

FEOS wrote:
Uzique wrote:
school tradition over here is huge, too... english universities invented that sort of academic elitism. ours seemed to be focussed more on academia and social privilege, though, instead of sports. i just don't see how sports have any thing to do with 'education' or career opportunity outside of professional sports.
It plays into the overall tradition of the school. Academia and social privilege do for some (think Ivy League--sports certainly aren't their forte), but for others, even if they have excellent academic programs, they are nationally known by all for winning championships in various sports. As much as some want to argue otherwise, often success in sports leads to solid academic programs. Maybe not for the athletes involved, but they bring notoriety for the schools, and thus funding for academic programs.

Ivy League sports aren't that bad. Cornell's basketball team is decent and Yale has a really good hockey team. Actually, Ivy League schools do surprisingly well in hockey.

Last edited by Poseidon (2011-06-03 20:05:00)

2011-06-03 20:04:05

#32

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,979|6872|949

i chose my school for academic merit. and because the one I wanted declined me

2011-06-03 20:07:55

#33

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6777|Long Island, New York

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
i chose my school for academic merit. and because the one I wanted declined me

So did I. Well, actually Air Force ROTC on campus as compared to my other two choices which had either no Air Force ROTC or no ROTC on campus at all was the biggest factor for me.

I really wanted to go to UVA as it was best all around, but they only accept 30% out of state students. My first year grades were pretty good but not to get into such a great school like that. Not that there's anything wrong with Miami's academics, I'd imagine they're just not on the level of UVA's.

But I realize a lot of people don't choose based on what you and I did.

Last edited by Poseidon (2011-06-03 20:08:15)

2011-06-04 01:36:29

#34

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Uzique wrote:
which has effected a turn in university education from humanistic and liberal principles of academia to job-vocational training academies. nowadays almost everything has to be accountable to a future salary or a career-plan; knowledge for the sake of knowledge has been made to look terribly old-fashioned and misguided (of course, it isn't). it seems that your above examples are just an absurd extenuation of these circumstances.

Thing is, in the history of academia it has been mostly rich people funding themselves or their kids through universit because they could.
There was a brief window when the tax-payer funded a small elite to do the liberal academia thing but socialism has, ironically, eliminated that.

If people still want to study classics or whatever then they're free to do so, they just have to pay for it like before.

Fuck Israel

2011-06-04 01:50:11

#35

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6956

if you get an online degree from a dodgy university you deserved to be scammed.

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2011-06-04 07:59:59

#36

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Poseidon wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I don't think you can accurately make a positive correlation as far as revenue gained from collegiate sports improving academics at their schools. When a school gets a windfall as a result of revenue from sports they don't often go and build a better science lab with this funding, they put it right back into their moneymaker - collegiate sports.
Like GS said, funding for public universities is dropping off rapidly. The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition costs is nearly double in some schools. These schools are attractive to out of state people because of the sports teams, partially if not a very good amount. For most people I talked to going to out of state state schools, it was at least a big part. It creates a sense of school pride which a lot of prospective students want. In that, the school gains more money than it would without big sports teams.

Not to mention having big sports teams, I would imagine, leads to a hell of a lot more alumni donating to the school.
Macbeth wrote:
The link in the OP was cool.
"The myth of the business model – that football and men’s basketball cover their own expenses and fully support non-revenue sports – is put to rest by an NCAA study finding that 94 [of the then 119 FBS] institutions ran a deficit for the 2007-08 school year, averaging losses of $9.9 million."
Okay, fair enough on that... but what does that have to do with the fact that without sports, major state schools would be less attractive to out of state students and thus less money for the school for academia? Again, a state school like SUNY Albany - shitty sports teams, relies almost entirely on state funding, almost entirely in-state students, and an education not nearly as good as one found at Penn State.

Penn State has 36% out of state students. That's around 14,000 out of state undergrads paying $12K more than in-state students. I'm no math wiz, but I believe that's 168 million dollars extra for the school coming from an influx of out of state students. Then you have SUNY Albany with it's crappy sports teams and 94% in-state students.

They could... I dunno... attract students via academic reputation? I know your priorities are different, but college is about what you learn in class, not frat parties.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-06-04 08:12:17

#37

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

As for the op... UoP, whatever, it will self regulate if the degrees don't lead to jobs and word spreads.

The NCAA needs to go. Athletics programs should not be taxpayer funded. Charge admission, and in the cases of football and basketball, hit up the Nba and nfl for money.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-06-04 11:28:12

#38

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6777|Long Island, New York

Jay wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I don't think you can accurately make a positive correlation as far as revenue gained from collegiate sports improving academics at their schools. When a school gets a windfall as a result of revenue from sports they don't often go and build a better science lab with this funding, they put it right back into their moneymaker - collegiate sports.
Like GS said, funding for public universities is dropping off rapidly. The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition costs is nearly double in some schools. These schools are attractive to out of state people because of the sports teams, partially if not a very good amount. For most people I talked to going to out of state state schools, it was at least a big part. It creates a sense of school pride which a lot of prospective students want. In that, the school gains more money than it would without big sports teams.

Not to mention having big sports teams, I would imagine, leads to a hell of a lot more alumni donating to the school.
Macbeth wrote:
The link in the OP was cool.
Okay, fair enough on that... but what does that have to do with the fact that without sports, major state schools would be less attractive to out of state students and thus less money for the school for academia? Again, a state school like SUNY Albany - shitty sports teams, relies almost entirely on state funding, almost entirely in-state students, and an education not nearly as good as one found at Penn State.

Penn State has 36% out of state students. That's around 14,000 out of state undergrads paying $12K more than in-state students. I'm no math wiz, but I believe that's 168 million dollars extra for the school coming from an influx of out of state students. Then you have SUNY Albany with it's crappy sports teams and 94% in-state students.
They could... I dunno... attract students via academic reputation? I know your priorities are different, but college is about what you learn in class, not frat parties.

Love how I just posted why I chose my college and you completely ignore it.

Jay: once again, best debater on an internet video gaming forum.

Anyone who isn't living in a hole knows that big sports teams bring in better academics one way or another and that a lot of people don't choose schools completely based on academic merit. Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a dream world.

Last edited by Poseidon (2011-06-04 11:29:20)

2011-06-04 12:08:04

#39

Hurricane2k9: Pendulous Sweaty Balls; +1,538|5941|College Park, MD

Except Caltech lol

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg

2011-06-04 12:21:54

#40

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,979|6872|949

Poseidon wrote:
Anyone who isn't living in a hole knows that big sports teams bring in better academics one way or another.

But there's just no evidence that this argument is true.

2011-06-04 12:24:35

#41

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5499|foggy bottom

I wish my school had a good team

Tu Stultus Es

2011-06-04 21:10:26

#42

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6956

Except for extreme sports nuts I doubt people choose a school for sports... Most people choose a school in the area they lived anyway.

2011-06-05 22:22:40

#43

nukchebi0: Пушкин, наше всё; +387|6564|New Haven, CT

Poseidon wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
I don't know anyone who picked a school in part because of it's sports team. Everyone I know decided on cost, distance, education value, degree field etc. Sports team? School spirit? What are we 12?
You have to be living in a hole to think a good portion of college kids didn't choose their school because of school pride, sports teams and partying. Why else would someone go get a degree in childhood education at freaking Penn State? If everyone chose schools because of what you listed, there probably wouldn't be any out of state kids at big state schools.

FEOS wrote:
Uzique wrote:
school tradition over here is huge, too... english universities invented that sort of academic elitism. ours seemed to be focussed more on academia and social privilege, though, instead of sports. i just don't see how sports have any thing to do with 'education' or career opportunity outside of professional sports.
It plays into the overall tradition of the school. Academia and social privilege do for some (think Ivy League--sports certainly aren't their forte), but for others, even if they have excellent academic programs, they are nationally known by all for winning championships in various sports. As much as some want to argue otherwise, often success in sports leads to solid academic programs. Maybe not for the athletes involved, but they bring notoriety for the schools, and thus funding for academic programs.
Ivy League sports aren't that bad. Cornell's basketball team is decent and Yale has a really good hockey team. Actually, Ivy League schools do surprisingly well in hockey.

Yale's hockey team was the reason I chose to go here.

2011-06-06 06:58:01

#44

11 Bravo: Banned; +965|5477|Cleveland, Ohio

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
Anyone who isn't living in a hole knows that big sports teams bring in better academics one way or another.
But there's just no evidence that this argument is true.

2011-06-06 07:44:58

#45

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6777|Long Island, New York

11 Bravo wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
Anyone who isn't living in a hole knows that big sports teams bring in better academics one way or another.
But there's just no evidence that this argument is true.

Great contribution once again marine. When in doubt, empty quote a post.

Cybargs wrote:
Except for extreme sports nuts I doubt people choose a school for sports... Most people choose a school in the area they lived anyway.

It happens a lot more than you'd like to think. Kids are dumb. Sports teams create a sense of school unity and people like that. That's why, again, big state schools like Penn State have a lot of out of state students. Then the out of state money goes back to the school and leads to better academics.

Last edited by Poseidon (2011-06-06 07:52:43)

2011-06-06 13:18:39

#46

nukchebi0: Пушкин, наше всё; +387|6564|New Haven, CT

Great karma pissyd very classy as is the norm for your anonymous message. Anyways I'm sad that you missed the point of my post as it was to corroborate what you said rather than try to boost my self-esteem by boasting about the college I attend. I find it disappointing that my support towards your point was misinterpreted so egregiously, as I feel it contributes to a unnecessary level of forum discord. I hope in the future you will approach my posts with more respect and open minded thought than you did here.

2011-06-06 13:20:00

#47

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6777|Long Island, New York

You weren't corroborating shit. You were being the obnoxious kid you always are trying to tell people you go to Yale because it's the only good thing to happen in your life, as if anyone actually cares. What you said had nothing to do with the points FEOS, myself and others were talking about. FEOS had already addressed that Ivy League schools draw people in based on academics because that's what they're mostly known for. A school like Penn State wouldn't nearly have as big of a campus, academics as good as they are and everything else they have that makes the school great if it wasn't for their sports teams.

Last edited by Poseidon (2011-06-06 13:35:58)

2011-06-06 13:43:14

#48

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Poseidon wrote:
You weren't corroborating shit. You were being the obnoxious kid you always are trying to tell people you go to Yale because it's the only good thing to happen in your life, as if anyone actually cares. What you said had nothing to do with the points FEOS, myself and others were talking about. FEOS had already addressed that Ivy League schools draw people in based on academics because that's what they're mostly known for. A school like Penn State wouldn't nearly have as big of a campus, academics as good as they are and everything else they have that makes the school great if it wasn't for their sports teams.

Umm, yeah they would. Out of state tuition payments don't pay the bills for universities. Taxpayer subsidies do. The difference between in, and out of state tuition is the difference of public subsidy. Penn State having a winning football team means fuck-all in the grand scheme of things. In reality, the type of student that would be swayed by the football team is the type that is there to party, not go to class, so in the end it has a detrimental impact, not a positive one. All a national football team does is spread the brand name.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-06-06 13:51:25

#49

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6710

nukchebi0 wrote:
Great karma pissyd very classy as is the norm for your anonymous message. Anyways I'm sad that you missed the point of my post as it was to corroborate what you said rather than try to boost my self-esteem by boasting about the college I attend. I find it disappointing that my support towards your point was misinterpreted so egregiously, as I feel it contributes to a unnecessary level of forum discord. I hope in the future you will approach my posts with more respect and open minded thought than you did here.

you've been at yale for - what? - 2 years now? and your prose writing is still absolutely torturous. poor show on the part of your professors to not correct that.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-06-06 15:12:06

#50

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,979|6872|949

he's trolling, ignore.

Regarding UoP, I know 2 people who got MBA's from there and they both were rewarded with pay raises upon completion, so saying it's a throwaway degree is somewhat incorrect.

BF2S Forums I will vote for whoever promises to regulate these two businesses

Uzique wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Uzique wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Uzique wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Board footer