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- Superior Mind
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Imagine the shit they had to get into to become so desperate as to actually go through with holding up a pharmacy.
He should have called the police, not walked back in, got another gun, walked over and shot the kid who was on the ground.lowing wrote:
A tragedy to be sure, to have a career as a pharmacist cut short in its prime. Seriously, although I shed not one tear for the dead robber, it is true this was not self defense, on the other hand I do not see how this is first degree murder either.Stimey wrote:
http://gawker.com/5806220/where-does-self-defense-end-killer-of-robber-convicted-of-murderhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBBlEhm … r_embeddedWhere Does Self Defense End? Killer of Robber Convicted of Murder
Hamilton Nolan — In May of 2009, Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland was at work when two teenagers came in to rob his store. What happens is caught on the surveillance video above:
1. Two teens burst into the store, one of them waving a gun.
2. Ersland shoots at them. The one with the gun runs out the door; the other is hit and falls.
3. Ersland exits the store in pursuit of the fleeing robber. Failing to catch him, he comes back into the store.
4. Ersland walks back behind the counter and retrieves a second gun.
5. Ersland walks back to where the fallen robber is, leans down, and shoots him multiple times, killing him.
Yesterday, Ersland was found guilty of first-degree murder. He faces life in prison. The case has divided public opinion along perfectly predictable lines. So we're just going to leave that set of facts right there, and you can all say what you think.
Clearly the second part was premeditated.
If he had killed the kid on the first bullet, well, that's a whole different story. Self defence, perfectly reasonable he shouldn't even get charged.
Last edited by Jaekus (2011-05-28 19:21:46)
hm why would criminals want to rob somewhere with cash and a shitpile of drugs? gee i wonderSuperior Mind wrote:
Imagine the shit they had to get into to become so desperate as to actually go through with holding up a pharmacy.
desperation has little to do with it
i fail to see how this falls under premeditated
No real sympathy for the robbers, but anyone who is fucked up enough to execute someone like that needs to be removed from society for a very long time.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
He had enough foresight to walk back into the store, get another gun, walk over and shoot the kid on the ground multiple times. That's not a spur of the moment thing. He could have just as easily called the police and stood over the kid with a gun until they arrived.krazed wrote:
hm why would criminals want to rob somewhere with cash and a shitpile of drugs? gee i wonderSuperior Mind wrote:
Imagine the shit they had to get into to become so desperate as to actually go through with holding up a pharmacy.
desperation has little to do with it
i fail to see how this falls under premeditated
Thats the problem right there.Ersland walks back to where the fallen robber is, leans down, and shoots him multiple times, killing him.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Macbeth wrote:
My post wasn't about the south but was about people.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
I guess you know everything about the south, then.Macbeth wrote:
In the short amount of time I've spent in the south
I could be wrong though. I'll check.
Macbeth wrote:
Checked. My post was about people and not about the south.
Awesome, highfive me.
Will you take 'derp' in lieu of a high-five?Macbeth wrote:
In the short amount of time I've spent in the south I've met a bunch of people
which is why it's murder, but not planned out well ahead of time murderJaekus wrote:
He had enough foresight to walk back into the store, get another gun, walk over and shoot the kid on the ground multiple times. That's not a spur of the moment thing. He could have just as easily called the police and stood over the kid with a gun until they arrived.krazed wrote:
hm why would criminals want to rob somewhere with cash and a shitpile of drugs? gee i wonderSuperior Mind wrote:
Imagine the shit they had to get into to become so desperate as to actually go through with holding up a pharmacy.
desperation has little to do with it
i fail to see how this falls under premeditated
Mate, look up the definition before arguing this further, it might help to know what you're talking about.krazed wrote:
which is why it's murder, but not planned out well ahead of time murderJaekus wrote:
He had enough foresight to walk back into the store, get another gun, walk over and shoot the kid on the ground multiple times. That's not a spur of the moment thing. He could have just as easily called the police and stood over the kid with a gun until they arrived.krazed wrote:
hm why would criminals want to rob somewhere with cash and a shitpile of drugs? gee i wonder
desperation has little to do with it
i fail to see how this falls under premeditated
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murderPremeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.[1] State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.
Doesn't sound like premeditated murder to me after reading your definition.Jaekus wrote:
Mate, look up the definition before arguing this further, it might help to know what you're talking about.krazed wrote:
which is why it's murder, but not planned out well ahead of time murderJaekus wrote:
He had enough foresight to walk back into the store, get another gun, walk over and shoot the kid on the ground multiple times. That's not a spur of the moment thing. He could have just as easily called the police and stood over the kid with a gun until they arrived.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murderPremeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.[1] State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.
First, he was scared and angry and pumped up. His action was not that of a rational thinking person, nor would he have done such a thing if not having had a gun pointed at him. He also did not try to evade detection. It looks like he picked up the phone and called someone., police maybe?
how some states may or may not define it does not change the fact that i feel it should not be counted as premeditated in this case
If he shot him multiple times, the first time, i would agree with you.
But he took the time to stroll back to his counter after chasing that other kid, grab a second gun out of a drawer and walk up to the kid and shoot him. that did not look like the reaction from someone that was mentally out of control.
Sure, he was pumped, angry and scared. But the fact that he really took his time and so easily grabbed that second gun really made it seem like he was in full control of himself and situation.
e: @ Lowing btw
But he took the time to stroll back to his counter after chasing that other kid, grab a second gun out of a drawer and walk up to the kid and shoot him. that did not look like the reaction from someone that was mentally out of control.
Sure, he was pumped, angry and scared. But the fact that he really took his time and so easily grabbed that second gun really made it seem like he was in full control of himself and situation.
e: @ Lowing btw
Last edited by Kampframmer (2011-05-29 01:54:56)
He was a different person before he had a gun pointed in his face. BEFORE the robbery he was sane and rational. AFTER the robbery he lost it. There is no consistency between the 2 behaviors. He was emotionally affected by the robbery and reacted to that. Not sure how anyone could call that calculated, planned or premeditated.Kampframmer wrote:
If he shot him multiple times, the first time, i would agree with you.
But he took the time to stroll back to his counter after chasing that other kid, grab a second gun out of a drawer and walk up to the kid and shoot him. that did not look like the reaction from someone that was mentally out of control.
Sure, he was pumped, angry and scared. But the fact that he really took his time and so easily grabbed that second gun really made it seem like he was in full control of himself and situation.
e: @ Lowing btw
He thought about it enough to go get a second gun, walk over to the kid still on the ground, lean over and shoot multiple times.lowing wrote:
Doesn't sound like premeditated murder to me after reading your definition.Jaekus wrote:
Mate, look up the definition before arguing this further, it might help to know what you're talking about.krazed wrote:
which is why it's murder, but not planned out well ahead of time murderhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murderPremeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.[1] State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.
First, he was scared and angry and pumped up. His action was not that of a rational thinking person, nor would he have done such a thing if not having had a gun pointed at him. He also did not try to evade detection. It looks like he picked up the phone and called someone., police maybe?
That fits the above definition perfectly.
except he didn't "try to avoid detection", and he didn't plan out to murder anyone that day. He was driven to that emotional state. He had not planned it.Jaekus wrote:
He thought about it enough to go get a second gun, walk over to the kid still on the ground, lean over and shoot multiple times.lowing wrote:
Doesn't sound like premeditated murder to me after reading your definition.Jaekus wrote:
Mate, look up the definition before arguing this further, it might help to know what you're talking about.krazed wrote:
which is why it's murder, but not planned out well ahead of time murder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder
First, he was scared and angry and pumped up. His action was not that of a rational thinking person, nor would he have done such a thing if not having had a gun pointed at him. He also did not try to evade detection. It looks like he picked up the phone and called someone., police maybe?
That fits the above definition perfectly.
I suggest you read the definition again because you are wrong.
I mean c'mon, you se no difference between this scenario and someone that digs a hole in the desert, before killing his wife and dumping her there?
Of course I do. But that's irrelevant to this discussion.
I did, a few times, still does not fit a calculating planned out, thought filled action with a means to not get caught.Jaekus wrote:
I suggest you read the definition again because you are wrong.
well the difference I see is one of premeditation and one of reaction. What is the difference you see?Jaekus wrote:
Of course I do. But that's irrelevant to this discussion.
Well my friend, you need to get a better grasp of the English language because it is pretty cut and dried.
whatever, as long as we don't start with the definition of "is" bullshit. I can't stand that.Jaekus wrote:
Well my friend, you need to get a better grasp of the English language because it is pretty cut and dried.
But it is right there, in the explanation of premeditated murder.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true.
well then you need to explain the lack of an attempt to avoid detection for starters, then move on to how his behavior was rational comparedto how he was 1 minute before all of this took place.Jaekus wrote:
But it is right there, in the explanation of premeditated murder.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true.