BF2S Forums Iraq veteran another casualty of a different war

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Group panic, 71 bullets, who are these idiots?

People that should be put on trial for murder, but won't.

71 shots because one of the team misfired. That's pretty appalling tbh.

*gray

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

The cops were in the right to shoot the guy if he had an AR-15. Further more, you can't blame the police for doing what they were trained and drilled to do.

The real blame lies with the people who authorized the raid and who made enforcing (on that level) drugs laws a priority.

They were right to shoot him? He was defending his home against unknown invaders. The cops did not identify themselves so they could've been any form of home invader. It doesn't matter if it's an AR-15, A glock, or a blowgun, he has the right to defend his home.

I understand he was defending his home and property. I also understand he did what most people who have weapons would do if someone was breaking into their house. But look at it from the officers perspective...they were performing a raid that their commanders told them was against a drug dealer who had military training. During the the confusion of the raid the guy came out with an AR-15. Considering it takes a second or less to bring the rifle up and start firing (that is if he wasn't already pointing it at them) their action of shooting the guy was completely justified.

It's a shitty situation but as far as the veteran and the officers go it's completely grey.

No one in their right mind would confront a SWAT unit with a AR-15 in their own home. The officers didn't identify themselves, he didn't know who the hell was invading his house, so he brought his rifle. Then, by a fuck up of one of the officers, the SWAT team end up firing 71 shots. Then they let him bleed out without calling paramedics. (This is of course assuming that previous story is correct)


Sounds like a pretty big fuck up to me.

I don't know how much of this scenario is being spun. It seems unlikely that if Guerena had time to retrieve his rifle he wouldn't have had enough time to also consider the situation and identify who the 'unknown invaders' were. Even if the police didn't identify themselves there are visual clues that surely Guerena would have had time to notice.

I think the police are clearly at fault here, it seems like their operation was a bit of a mess and their personnel were poorly trained in proper procedure. Police or military, you don't just shoot a person straight away if they happen to have a weapon on them. But Guerena isn't faultless. I doubt he didn't know that it was the police and I also doubt he planned to use his rifle. But he did choose to arm himself for whatever reason which was a stupid decision and he paid the price.

lowing wrote:

Ya know the difference between you all and the cops? You all have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, and the luxury of time to play it over in your heads after the fact and decide what THEY SHOULDA done. Then pass judgement.

I loathe all of this frame by frame analysis to determine what they right thing to do was.

So you think paramilitary SWAT teams are necessary for conducting drug raids? You wouldn't mind your own front door broken down and your family terrorized as long as they apologize afterwards?

lowing wrote:

Ya know the difference between you all and the cops? You all have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, and the luxury of time to play it over in your heads after the fact and decide what THEY SHOULDA done. Then pass judgement.

I loathe all of this frame by frame analysis to determine what they right thing to do was.

SWAT teams also have the benefit of years of hard-core training that is supposed to preclude this kind of stuff from happening. If people without any training at all can see these problems so easily, then there are clearly other, systemic issues at play.

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

So you think paramilitary SWAT teams are necessary for conducting drug raids? You wouldn't mind your own front door broken down and your family terrorized as long as they apologize afterwards?

Nope I don't mind them, I want my police force heavier armed than those they are sent in to take down thank you very much.

Also, I will play the odds that my family will not have to worry about a SWAT team beating down my doors searching for drugs.

Still has nothing to do with what I said about all of your arm chair quarterbacking and judgement.

It has everything to do with it lowing. Police should not be trained and armed as soldiers. Their job is to serve and protect, yes? Their job is also supposed to have an element of danger attached to it, yes? They're our servants, it's not the other way around. Need to serve a warrant? Wear a vest and bring your glock, not a fucking MP5.

And it won't happen to you? How do you know? The police made a mistake in this raid, surely they could make a mistake and hit your home too. Maybe they'll only shoot your dog instead of your own personage. Maybe.

I have no problem with the cops being trained as soldiers, especially up against the fire power of the criminals they have to deal with. Is it really your position that a cop should be out gunned because his life is SUPPOSED to be in danger? Not really sure how to answer an attitude like that, so I will let it go.

By ridding the streets of criminals they are serving and protecting. They do take on a dangerous job, and they are there to serve the public, do you mind if we give them the training and equipment that increases their chances of going home to their families?  Is that a real issue for you?

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

Nope I don't mind them, I want my police force heavier armed than those they are sent in to take down thank you very much.

Also, I will play the odds that my family will not have to worry about a SWAT team beating down my doors searching for drugs.

Still has nothing to do with what I said about all of your arm chair quarterbacking and judgement.

It has everything to do with it lowing. Police should not be trained and armed as soldiers. Their job is to serve and protect, yes? Their job is also supposed to have an element of danger attached to it, yes? They're our servants, it's not the other way around. Need to serve a warrant? Wear a vest and bring your glock, not a fucking MP5.

And it won't happen to you? How do you know? The police made a mistake in this raid, surely they could make a mistake and hit your home too. Maybe they'll only shoot your dog instead of your own personage. Maybe.

I have no problem with the cops being trained as soldiers, especially up against the fire power of the criminals they have to deal with. Is it really your position that a cop should be out gunned because his life is SUPPOSED to be in danger? Not really sure how to answer an attitude like that, so I will let it go.

By ridding the streets of criminals they are serving and protecting. They do take on a dangerous job, and they are there to serve the public, do you mind if we give them the training and equipment that increases their chances of going home to their families?  Is that a real issue for you?

It is when it puts my own life in danger. I don't want armed cops busting down my door and with the recent Supreme Court ruling, they don't even need a search warrant anymore. There's a helluva lot more people shot by cops than cops shot by people so wouldn't you say the tide has swung a little too far in their favor? I would.

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

I have no problem with the cops being trained as soldiers, especially up against the fire power of the criminals they have to deal with. Is it really your position that a cop should be out gunned because his life is SUPPOSED to be in danger? Not really sure how to answer an attitude like that, so I will let it go.

By ridding the streets of criminals they are serving and protecting. They do take on a dangerous job, and they are there to serve the public, do you mind if we give them the training and equipment that increases their chances of going home to their families?  Is that a real issue for you?

It is when it puts my own life in danger. I don't want armed cops busting down my door and with the recent Supreme Court ruling, they don't even need a search warrant anymore. There's a helluva lot more people shot by cops than cops shot by people so wouldn't you say the tide has swung a little too far in their favor? I would.

Ya really feel your life is in danger? Really? While you are at it, you might wanna quit driving to rule out any possibility of you getting killed in a car accident. There are a hellova lot more CRIMINALS shot by cops...I have no problem with it.

Of course you don't. You don't believe in the justice system. You believe in the vigilante system. I bet you like to think that you'd enjoy pulling the trigger if given the job of rounding up a posse and chasing after a criminal.

There's a reason that posses and vigilante justice is a myth and not reality. Sorry lowing.

Uzique wrote:

what a frightening conception of justice. very little warrants the death to a gun possessed by a 'protector of the peace'. it's a dangerous attitude to excuse or ignore the flippant killing of a citizen of your country by its armed state-forces. the police are meant to be there to bring people to justice... not to deal it out in a hail of bullets.

it would be different, Uzique, if the dead man from the OP was indeed a drug dealer or whatnot - the story cited is a man that served his country, came back alive to house and protect his family, only to die from the wanton ineptitude of a paramilitary police unit.

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

It is when it puts my own life in danger. I don't want armed cops busting down my door and with the recent Supreme Court ruling, they don't even need a search warrant anymore. There's a helluva lot more people shot by cops than cops shot by people so wouldn't you say the tide has swung a little too far in their favor? I would.

Ya really feel your life is in danger? Really? While you are at it, you might wanna quit driving to rule out any possibility of you getting killed in a car accident. There are a hellova lot more CRIMINALS shot by cops...I have no problem with it.

Of course you don't. You don't believe in the justice system. You believe in the vigilante system. I bet you like to think that you'd enjoy pulling the trigger if given the job of rounding up a posse and chasing after a criminal.

There's a reason that posses and vigilante justice is a myth and not reality. Sorry lowing.

Oh I believe in the justice system as it is supposed to be, and it is not supposed to be where the criminal outguns the law. I do not believe in vigilante justice. I do believe in the right to defend yourself with deadly force. Been down this road before Jay, I own guns yes, I like to go shooting yes. I have no desire to kill anyone, not even in self defense. I do have a desire to ensure the protection of my family and my possessions.

In one thread the argument is, it is the cops job to protect us, not our own, and in this thread you don't even want the cops to have the ability to effectively protect themselves, let alone us. What is it you expect from s police force exactly?

Jay wrote:

burnzz wrote:

Uzique wrote:

what a frightening conception of justice. very little warrants the death to a gun possessed by a 'protector of the peace'. it's a dangerous attitude to excuse or ignore the flippant killing of a citizen of your country by its armed state-forces. the police are meant to be there to bring people to justice... not to deal it out in a hail of bullets.

it would be different, Uzique, if the dead man from the OP was indeed a drug dealer or whatnot - the story cited is a man that served his country, came back alive to house and protect his family, only to die from the wanton ineptitude of a paramilitary police unit.

It wouldn't matter if the guy was a drug dealer. Since when is dealing drugs a capital offense? I don't care if he's a car thief, or a bank robber, or whatever else; it's not the cops job to pass a death sentence.

you're right, drug dealing is not a capital offense.

when is protecting your home legal?

The Guereña maintains that SWAT members did not identify themselves before breaking down the door, and Jose Guereña had his rifle drawn because he was protecting his family from what he thought was a home invasion.  His wife said he had a clean criminal record, and that she still doesn't know why SWAT members were serving a search warrant at the house.

who here, on this forum, can say that they do not have the right to arm and protect themselves from a perceived home invasion?