Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5631|London, England
Oh, Vermont, you’re so crazy. According to the Internet, (which, granted, may or may not be telling the truth in the strict sense) you once passed a law banning tying giraffes to telephone poles. You also gave America Sen. Bernie “Please-Call-Me-a-Successful-(Democratic)-Socialist!” Sanders, who, in December of 2009, tried to attach a 700-page single-payer health care bill to ObamaCare.

That didn’t take, but Vermont’s politicians aren’t giving up on the dream, or the crazy. The state’s legislators are now in the process of making it the first state in the nation to experiment with single-payer health care. In broad strokes, the plan is for the state to eventually fold everyone into a system in which all health care payments go through the government, which will transform itself, Megatron-style, into the state’s one and only insurer and health care pay-master. One system, one government, one payer: Hence, single payer.

Will it work? No state has ever actually implemented a single-payer health system before, so there isn't much precedent. But back in the 1990s, California flirted with the idea of setting up a single payer system under the autocratic rule of a state-appointed health commissioner whose absolute control over the system’s giant budget would have rivaled Dr. Doom’s control over Latveria (albeit without the Doombots).

Unlike California’s single-payer proposal, Vermont’s law will pass: “Obviously, I intend to sign the bill,” Gov. Pete Shumlin recently told the Burlington Free Press. But the law won’t birth a full-fledged single payer system overnight: Mostly the plan is to slowly start the process of rolling people into a single system and figure out exactly how to make it work later.

According to the law’s backers, it will work this time. Somehow! Here's Wendell Potter, the perpetually aggreived ex-health insurance exec, talking up its benefits:

    Vermont this week will be taking a giant leap in the other direction—toward universal coverage and greater cost control—when Gov. Peter Shumlin signs legislation putting the state on the path toward a single-payer health care system.

So, about that "cost control." Sounds good, and Potter isn’t the only one to cite that as a reason to pass the law: Last year, Shulin indicated that he also believes the law will make health care cheap, cheap, cheap. You know, like Medicare, which after all only blows about $50 billion a year on fraud and improper payments. Anyway!

How exactly would that work? The law has a plan—a sort of super-sized, super-powerful version of ObamaCare’s Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), the board of federal bureaucrats charged with holding down Medicare’s spending—but the authors of the legislation left out some of the OMG-how-will-we-pay-for-this?!?! details.  Like, for example, the financing mechanisms. That’s right; the law’s authors didn’t actually get to that part. Crazy? Maybe a bit. But not entirely. After all: There is a study group! They’re totally working on it.
http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/09/vermo … ngle-payer

Obviously an op-ed with it's own opinion on the topic but what do you all think? Personally, I'm quite happy seeing this sort of thing enacted at the state level. Not only will I not have to pay for it, it becomes a nice little experiment. If it works, pass it up the chain. If it fails, add it to the box of losing ideas.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|6271
That would be nice, but when it fails it won't go into the box of losing ideas, it'll go to the box of "it'll work if we make this little change that'll only cost 10% more!"

Unfortunately, that box is usually less a box than an infinite loop.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5631|London, England

HollisHurlbut wrote:

That would be nice, but when it fails it won't go into the box of losing ideas, it'll go to the box of "it'll work if we make this little change that'll only cost 10% more!"

Unfortunately, that box is usually less a box than an infinite loop.
As long as its contained at the state level, I couldn't care less If it's what the voters of Vermont, they'll get what they pay for.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
13rin
Member
+977|6752
Dr. Hsiao's report spurred it

https://cmsimg.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=BT&Date=20110119&Category=NEWS03&ArtNo=110119010&Ref=AR&MaxW=640&Border=0

Pretty optimistic forecasts.  After they did the revision it looked even better. I'm freaking skeptical.  A payroll tax will fund it.  The Dr. conceded it still wouldn't cover everyone.  I'm skeptical and they're covering their asses....  I'm not buying. The report claim to be able to save 50% admin costs, but how isn't revealed.

Whether the cost of covering the uninsured, improving the benefits for the under insured, and adding new benefits will also decrease proportionately will require additional study.
And when it fails as other models have, who will pick up the tab?

Jay wrote:

As long as its contained at the state level, I couldn't care less
That's the key.  I doubt it would stay on state level.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6743
great idea, in my opinion. and as you said jay, if it's at the state level - what's the harm to you? as long as the tax-paying people of vermont have a democratic say in the idea and thus can exercise some level of individual 'control' via consensus... it's all fine. as for the rest of the comments (and the topic, generally): i still don't understand why americans are so afraid of universal health-care. i mean, i get the principles and ideologies at stake here... but jesus, it's the 21st century.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5975|College Park, MD
what zeek and Dolt said

I hope it's a success
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6922

I think it's great. I hope it works out, and perhaps lessens America's fear of all things socialist a little.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5510|Cleveland, Ohio

Uzique wrote:

great idea, in my opinion. and as you said jay, if it's at the state level - what's the harm to you? as long as the tax-paying people of vermont have a democratic say in the idea and thus can exercise some level of individual 'control' via consensus... it's all fine. as for the rest of the comments (and the topic, generally): i still don't understand why americans are so afraid of universal health-care. i mean, i get the principles and ideologies at stake here... but jesus, it's the 21st century.
we have universal healthcare for people who cannot afford it
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6743
i'm pretty critical of things like medicare... you guys could do a lot better (and more cost efficiently, too)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5510|Cleveland, Ohio

Uzique wrote:

i'm pretty critical of things like medicare... you guys could do a lot better (and more cost efficiently, too)
maybe.  i dunno.  i dont mind paying for what i need myself.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6743
yeah but at some point that attitude needs to extend (to some degree) for a principle of communality. that's the whole concept behind western democratic liberalism: that fine-balance between unimpinged individualism and the maintenance of basic rights for every citizen. you've got to concede a little to that 'basic rights for all' aspect in order for the individualism to truly be enjoyable and worth celebrating.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5510|Cleveland, Ohio

Uzique wrote:

yeah but at some point that attitude needs to extend (to some degree) for a principle of communality. that's the whole concept behind western democratic liberalism: that fine-balance between unimpinged individualism and the maintenance of basic rights for every citizen. you've got to concede a little to that 'basic rights for all' aspect in order for the individualism to truly be enjoyable and worth celebrating.
i am willing to bet 99% of people out there CAN pay for health insurance on their own.  now, for people who get dropped because they have a disease or something then i would step in.
13rin
Member
+977|6752

Uzique wrote:

great idea, in my opinion. and as you said jay, if it's at the state level - what's the harm to you? as long as the tax-paying people of vermont have a democratic say in the idea and thus can exercise some level of individual 'control' via consensus... it's all fine. as for the rest of the comments (and the topic, generally): i still don't understand why americans are so afraid of universal health-care. i mean, i get the principles and ideologies at stake here... but jesus, it's the 21st century.
Social health care is a failing experiment.  Even guy who designed Canada's has even said its not working.  Britain run horror stories of medical fail.  Social healthcare isn't a 21st century concept and is no indication of what 'the future' should be.   Sure, what Vermont does is up to them, but that doesn't mean it won't effect me.  This goes, just watch them start losing Doctors to States that don't set rates....  Because lest the state do that, there's no fucking way it will work.  They're calling it 'Administrative Costs'...   

Did any of you read the good Dr.'s findings or 'amended' report?  Their legislature hasn't even decided on how to do this.  It's a weak road map at best.

It reminds me of the southpark ??? profit spoof.

  "afraid of universal health-care"?  Nah.  However, I simply don't want to pay for it (and I all ready am to an extent).  Which would be exactly what happens when it fails.  And I think that's a fucking back door for national healthcare.

Last edited by 13rin (2011-05-12 16:20:27)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
13rin
Member
+977|6752

11 Bravo wrote:

Uzique wrote:

yeah but at some point that attitude needs to extend (to some degree) for a principle of communality. that's the whole concept behind western democratic liberalism: that fine-balance between unimpinged individualism and the maintenance of basic rights for every citizen. you've got to concede a little to that 'basic rights for all' aspect in order for the individualism to truly be enjoyable and worth celebrating.
i am willing to bet 99% of people out there CAN pay for health insurance on their own.  now, for people who get dropped because they have a disease or something then i would step in.
Yes they can... But most would rather pay for cable TV or a fucking cell phone instead.  It's fucking personal responsibility.  The majority of people out there don't have it.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
13rin
Member
+977|6752

Uzique wrote:

i'm pretty critical of things like medicare... you guys could do a lot better (and more cost efficiently, too)
As you are aware, Medicare in essence is State Health Care for the end.  If you think it is fail, why would you want more of it?  Retool?  Sure, why not?  But for a State to just shift policy because of 1 Doctor's report bolstered by a rosy budget prediction that leaves massive unexplored variables? 

No..

But this isn't what it's really about.   You get policy in, you change it next year. 

Not for you, but the rest that refused to dig....


The pie is my insurance I bought (Fucking big pie too)  because I know I've lived hard and fast.  I have certain terms and conditions I abide by understanding certain services can be utilized.   These guy are professionals and I recognize their talent for organ transfer.  Now here comes Penn (aka the government regulation) cutting into my level or quality of care.  How long before the Doctor stands up and leaves the table? 

The point is moot for me as I can seek medical attention wherever I desire.   Partly why I don't understand why people would rather buy cable tv and cell phones instead...
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5631|London, England

ghettoperson wrote:

I think it's great. I hope it works out, and perhaps lessens America's fear of all things socialist a little.
I'm fairly certain it's going to fail miserably. Unlike when things like this are done at the national level, people can escape from the state to avoid it. I see a mass exodus of the wealthy and businesses from the state in the near future. When this happens they'll be forced to raise taxes even higher which will drive out even more people etc. Socialism without an audience captured by their citizenship will always fail.

You see it as an opportunity to show Americans that socialism isn't bad. I see it as a wonderful way to show Americans how terribly awful the system really is.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5631|London, England

Uzique wrote:

yeah but at some point that attitude needs to extend (to some degree) for a principle of communality. that's the whole concept behind western democratic liberalism: that fine-balance between unimpinged individualism and the maintenance of basic rights for every citizen. you've got to concede a little to that 'basic rights for all' aspect in order for the individualism to truly be enjoyable and worth celebrating.
I fail to see how surrendering my freedom to choose my health care provider somehow increases my freedom. We as a country do not have a national identity. We're a mishmash of sections held together by a federal government. My daily life in New York is completely different from what someone in Southern California, or Texas or Nebraska experiences. We have no commonality besides a shared national citizenship. Frankly, I think most of us like it just the way it is too. You can keep your nationalism.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6743
it's paradoxical and ironic that america is far more nationalist than the united kingdom (and possibly any country with socialised healthcare in western europe). you guys have an intense sense of national unity and identity, but as soon as it comes to a national-scale proposal for a social benefit, you're all of a sudden a fragmented collection of individual tribes and sects... okay. like i said it's the tricky conciliation between individualism and communitarianism - you need a little of both for any success.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5631|London, England
You should come visit sometime. Outside of the Red states you won't see many American flags waving, and if you're in the Southern Red states you're just as, if not more, likely to see a Rebel flag. Maybe you've just had too much exposure to lowing, because the vast majority of people I've known in my life aren't flag wavers.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6743
i've been to the states 4-5 times, you keep throwing this at me as if i'm getting my entire impression of the states from watching fox news 24/7 in my isolated sealed-off basement. there's a difference between a nationalist spirit and flag-waving. america was a civil religion from lincoln onwards - you practically deify figures like that in a way that we certainly don't (save the exception of war-time leaders, for obvious reasons). you have to recite a national anthem every day in school. that stuff does not exist in european countries with 'socialist' health-care systems. it's something more likely to be seen in russia in the 1980's, maybe. all i'm saying is the irony of saying to a european "you can have your nationalism".
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6743
by the way how many times have you been to europe or britain, considering we can "keep our nationalism" and somehow "you should come visit" is a qualifier?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5631|London, England
I had to say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning in public school too. It's like religion. Get 'em while they're young, brainwash them, and send them on their way. Except it backfires by making people relatively immune to it. Oh sure, people will still stand and hold their hand over their heart or take off their hat when the anthem is played, but it's just muscle memory. Will most people generally defend the country against an outsiders verbal jabs? Yeah, but that could be said of any national populace. But outside of politics where it's used to rile up the conservative base, it's just not paid any heed to.

So no, I won't let you blind me with nationalistic rhetoric while trying to strip me of my rights. Sorry. You know damn well that when someone starts preaching about god and country they're trying to screw you out of either your freedom or your money, or both. It's a tool used by those who wish to grab power. Nothing more.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5631|London, England

Uzique wrote:

by the way how many times have you been to europe or britain, considering we can "keep our nationalism" and somehow "you should come visit" is a qualifier?
Twice to the Netherlands. Once to Germany. Zero desire to see Merry Olde England. Your food sucks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5975|College Park, MD
hopey-changey
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5859

I don't see universal health care access as an ethical issue but instead as a practicality issue. It's not a "should we" but "can we" thing. I also don't see the ethical value in the argument coming from some of the right of "not everyone deserves health care".

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard