there's more than one person reading and participating in this thread.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
did you not just respond to him?
are you unaware that more than one person can quote/reply to an ongoing discussion? jesus h. christ. masterclass.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
yes but you called him out specifically. not sure how you can say what you said was intended for everyone.
anyone can pick up on something i said and respond/alter the course of the discussion. this is not complicated.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
ok dude
I understand this, but unlike the ME, the rest of the world grew up. We no longer tolerate such thinking and action.Uzique wrote:
lowing you really don't understand the history of islam. factional violence in the middle-east is nothing new. america was born because christians were persecuting and committing mass violence against one another - are you forgetting that? and how else is religious culture and political ideology entrenched? is the rest of the world immune from the "simply because their fathers and grandfathers... did" mentality? i hardly think so.
average muslims aren't strapping bombs to anyone's chests, either. but the reason that does happen (as with all extremist behaviour) is because of political, social and economic pressures. huge amounts of pressures. some of which are at least outlined (only for the sake of soliciting emotion, albeit) in the video i posted. americans aren't resorting to that behaviour because they don't have to; you're the ones winning in this scenario, why would you? that said, as the video identified, there are christian extremists and gross examples of insanity, too. and, as i suspect, your awareness and perception of the 'extremism' is probably exaggerated. just as a muslim's would be if he only galvanized his opinion by checking the websites he 'needed' to check in order to bolster his own (narrow) worldviews.
your refusal to acknowledge or go "way deeper" is exactly why you never will empathize, let alone grasp and understand. that's why all these debates are a waste of time. you're happy to reach a judgemental conclusion based on the surface alone and you won't even admit the possibility of any further complexity.
We snuff out our extremists on our own. Making it very clear we do not tolerate their extremists views or actions. We do not blame an outside party for internal strife. How am I supposed to" walk in their shoes" and understand their intolerance of absolutely everything non-Islamic is my fault? How am I supposed to understand the need to blow up a marketplace full of women and children is my fault? In the darkest hours of American struggles, we never resorted to such bullshit, there is no understanding it, because it defies all reason and logic.
the rest of the world grew up? there's like 100 years difference. a century has about as much consequence as a fart in the wind in the grand scheme of things. when people review the history of the 'modern' period in 500 years time, i don't think they'll fret and distinguish much between the west/east. over a timeline of, say, a quarter of a century, everything will be flattened out and then there will be some REAL perspective. taking a high-and-mighty chair above the middle-east about 'growing up' is just facile. look at the street parties over OBL's death (which is, after all, what we're talking about). you've grown up? doesn't look like it to me. pretty stone-age mentality, that.
and of course you can't understand it. you refuse to accept moral or political relativism. your mentality is exclusively and incompatibly western - it's impossible for you to think outside of that paradigm. you cannot begin to understand where their attitudes and values derive from because you're only willing to engage with it and consider it from the perspective of a western-american critique. to you, everything you have read and 'learned' about islam has had the ostensible purpose of furthering your ability to discredit and denounce it. your total unwillingness to even give a passing thought to the complex historical context to all this further compounds the problem. you expect two disparate cultures to come to the same point of 'advancement' when we both come from two entirely different systems that negates the idea of an objective 'advancement' or 'progress', anyway.
and of course you can't understand it. you refuse to accept moral or political relativism. your mentality is exclusively and incompatibly western - it's impossible for you to think outside of that paradigm. you cannot begin to understand where their attitudes and values derive from because you're only willing to engage with it and consider it from the perspective of a western-american critique. to you, everything you have read and 'learned' about islam has had the ostensible purpose of furthering your ability to discredit and denounce it. your total unwillingness to even give a passing thought to the complex historical context to all this further compounds the problem. you expect two disparate cultures to come to the same point of 'advancement' when we both come from two entirely different systems that negates the idea of an objective 'advancement' or 'progress', anyway.
Last edited by Uzique (2011-05-07 15:30:55)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Well the degree of extremist conviction that makes people strap bombs to themselves and blow up as many random people as they can comes down to severe (self)-indoctrination. True, the cause of people to get to this point probably are external factors over which the individual has no influence, extremism abusing the impressionable state someone is in at that moment.
Nevertheless it's still a very real danger, especially when it gains momentum. It's a bit of a paradox that the methods that have been used to try and counter extremist ideology (so far) feed into its succes at the same time; you can't ignore it and it's very hard to fight against effectively.
Nevertheless it's still a very real danger, especially when it gains momentum. It's a bit of a paradox that the methods that have been used to try and counter extremist ideology (so far) feed into its succes at the same time; you can't ignore it and it's very hard to fight against effectively.
inane little opines
yes we grew up. We celebrated and loved the fact that that bastard is dead...We however did not blow up buildings and riot over a cartoon. We did not blow up our own marketplaces because people in the ME hung our citizens over a bridge burned to a crisp and celebrated....We grew up, 100 years difference not withstanding.Uzique wrote:
the rest of the world grew up? there's like 100 years difference. a century has about as much consequence as a fart in the wind in the grand scheme of things. when people review the history of the 'modern' period in 500 years time, i don't think they'll fret and distinguish much between the west/east. over a timeline of, say, a quarter of a century, everything will be flattened out and then there will be some REAL perspective. taking a high-and-mighty chair above the middle-east about 'growing up' is just facile. look at the street parties over OBL's death (which is, after all, what we're talking about). you've grown up? doesn't look like it to me. pretty stone-age mentality, that.
and of course you can't understand it. you refuse to accept moral or political relativism. your mentality is exclusively and incompatibly western - it's impossible for you to think outside of that paradigm. you cannot begin to understand where their attitudes and values derive from because you're only willing to engage with it and consider it from the perspective of a western-american critique. to you, everything you have read and 'learned' about islam has had the ostensible purpose of furthering your ability to discredit and denounce it. your total unwillingness to even giving a passing thought to the complex historical context to all this further compounds the problem. you expect two disparate cultures to come to the same point of 'advancement' when we both come from two entirely different systems that negates the idea of an objective 'advancement' or 'progress', anyway.
and no, I can not understand. How about I step into the shoes and empathize with Jeffery Dahlmer? Why? Why would I feel the need to do so? Would it help me "understand" and rationalize his murdering and eating people?
You did not respond to the point that in AMerica we deal with our extremists, and we do not blame outside influences for internal strife.
In fact, maybe the ME should empathize with the US. After all, we have free thought, free and peaceful elections, why is it we are the ones that are supposed to understand and rationalize their barbaric behavior, when their energy could be spent recognizing that, hey, we can all live together, Jews Muslims, and Christians, blacks and white and browns and yellows without blowing up our own children? I don't give a fuck to understand why they want to blow themselves up. If they are interested, they can learn to live together and have a blue print to do so. They money is in their country to do so, take it from those holding it from them and refusing to allow it to circulate within their economies.
lowing the point is that people are capable of doing crazy stuff when pushed. It's not a collection of jeffrey dahmers over there.
inane little opines
ultimate devil's advocate:
http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/no … ion_to_os/
(i pare my finger-nails)
http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/no … ion_to_os/
(i pare my finger-nails)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
such a douche that guy is
thats just full of shit
inane little opines
People are still bitching about the fucking operation name? Holy shit.
and my point is, the internal pressure is coming from their own culture and not from the US. The US provided the ME with the means to grow a viable economy, only their internal bullshit between factions of Muslims and Muslim in general against everyone else is the cause of their problems. What has the US done soooooooo terrible that would cause a "loving father kissing their kids goodbye on his way out to protect them and their country" to go to town and blow up a marketplace where not even a single American is killed?Shocking wrote:
lowing the point is that people are capable of doing crazy stuff when pushed. It's not a collection of jeffrey dahmers over there.
no. just no. see? your view. oh christ. no.lowing wrote:
and my point is, the internal pressure is coming from their own culture and not from the US. The US provided the ME with the means to grow a viable economy, only their internal bullshit between factions of Muslims and Muslim in general against everyone else is the cause of their problems. What has the US done soooooooo terrible that would cause a "loving father kissing their kids goodbye on his way out to protect them and their country" to go to town and blow up a marketplace where not even a single American is killed?Shocking wrote:
lowing the point is that people are capable of doing crazy stuff when pushed. It's not a collection of jeffrey dahmers over there.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
No, I know that. Although gross mismanagement of the wars and certain statements made by government officials in the past 8 years have had to effect that the US has easily been identified as the bogeyman over there. It's not an entirely one-sided problem.
And the people who blow themselves up aren't exactly family men. More like people at the bottom of the pit; outcasts, depressed 'failures' etc.
And the people who blow themselves up aren't exactly family men. More like people at the bottom of the pit; outcasts, depressed 'failures' etc.
Last edited by Shocking (2011-05-07 16:03:13)
inane little opines
Gross mismanagement? Schools Mosques, waterworks, electricity, communications etc are all improving in Iraq since post Saddam. Slow, sure, but forward progress is being made. Yes the US has been identified as the bogeyman, that does not mean the US IS the bogeyman. How hard would it be to recognize the Muslim with the suicide vest blowing up their kids is the real bogeyman? Is it that much of a stretch to recognizeShocking wrote:
No, I know that. Although gross mismanagement of the wars and certain statements made by government officials in the past 8 years have had to effect that the US has easily been identified as the bogeyman over there. It's not an entirely one-sided problem.
And the people who blow themselves up aren't exactly family men. More like people at the bottom of the pit; outcasts, depressed 'failures' etc.
Well the guy in uzi's video is certainly trying to make them out to be regular family men. Hence the quotes.
what part am I mistaken about? the Muslim on Muslim violence? or the Muslim on everybody else violence? Maybe the oil that the west developed for the ME and is now under the control of OPEC? Is that whatI am wrong about? Or am I wrong about their own self induced inequalities they hold for one another as well as outsiders? What am I wrong about?Uzique wrote:
no. just no. see? your view. oh christ. no.lowing wrote:
and my point is, the internal pressure is coming from their own culture and not from the US. The US provided the ME with the means to grow a viable economy, only their internal bullshit between factions of Muslims and Muslim in general against everyone else is the cause of their problems. What has the US done soooooooo terrible that would cause a "loving father kissing their kids goodbye on his way out to protect them and their country" to go to town and blow up a marketplace where not even a single American is killed?Shocking wrote:
lowing the point is that people are capable of doing crazy stuff when pushed. It's not a collection of jeffrey dahmers over there.
bottom line is this... Even if the US or Israel etc was non-existent in the ME, it would still be in turmoil because their culture of violence and intolerance against each other as well as everything non-islamic creates turmoil.
I like where this is going.
um. how is this different from anywhere else in the world? europe and north america have both been hubs for 'violence and intolerance', creating mass 'turmoil', throughout all of history. we're hardly even in a quiet-period now... there isn't 10 years without a conflict or a military operation somewhere. what makes the middle-east especially bad? perhaps the fact you don't identify with them, hence them being the dreaded 'other'?lowing wrote:
bottom line is this... Even if the US or Israel etc was non-existent in the ME, it would still be in turmoil because their culture of violence and intolerance against each other as well as everything non-islamic creates turmoil.
speaking of bogeyman...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
bottom line is this... even if the muslims were non-existent in europe, it would still be in turmoil because of our culture of violence and intolerance against each other as well as everything that the muslim immigrants do create. bosnia? georgia? chechyna? northern ireland? spain?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Well as I said, even in our darkest hour, blowing up women and children was not standard practice...Sorry, yes we fight, we fight wars, we fight armies, and when we fight we tend to have a reason, we do not fight innocent women and children and we certainly do not fight them because they believe differently. That is why we do not identify with themUzique wrote:
um. how is this different from anywhere else in the world? europe and north america have both been hubs for 'violence and intolerance', creating mass 'turmoil', throughout all of history. we're hardly even in a quiet-period now... there isn't 10 years without a conflict or a military operation somewhere. what makes the middle-east especially bad? perhaps the fact you don't identify with them, hence them being the dreaded 'other'?lowing wrote:
bottom line is this... Even if the US or Israel etc was non-existent in the ME, it would still be in turmoil because their culture of violence and intolerance against each other as well as everything non-islamic creates turmoil.
speaking of bogeyman...