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SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+607|3213
They were providing jobs.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

israel is a de facto and de jure entity now. it was made thus in the late 19th century by britain.
Er, no it wasn't.

Its strange that you:
Claim to be a history enthusiast but make stuff up when it suits your agenda

Drone on about multiculturalism and anti-racism but simultaneously support the leading racist monoculture in the world.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Biden announced a canceling of $10,000 of debt and an extension of the student loan payment pause until December 31st. They are never restarting those payments as long as Biden is president..
Really thats unfair to the people who did pay back their loans.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+491|2946

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

israel is a de facto and de jure entity now. it was made thus in the late 19th century by britain.
Er, no it wasn't.

Its strange that you:
Claim to be a history enthusiast but make stuff up when it suits your agenda

Drone on about multiculturalism and anti-racism but simultaneously support the leading racist monoculture in the world.
israel is a state recognized by the UN and the G7. the only dissenting or abstaining nations from israel's legal nation-state status are the arab world – who do as much in actual fact to help their palestinian fairweather brethren as you do, i.e. absolutely fuck all – and nowhere places like eritrea.

israel is a fact and has been, regardless of your whimpering. if people should 'get over' harms done to them generations ago, why are you still whining about the existence of israel? seems like a contradiction of your own facile principles.

again, this is your moronic thinking being parroted back at you, not mine.
uziq
Member
+491|2946

Dilbert_X wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Biden announced a canceling of $10,000 of debt and an extension of the student loan payment pause until December 31st. They are never restarting those payments as long as Biden is president..
Really thats unfair to the people who did pay back their loans.
no, it's really not.

even biden responded to this by saying something along the lines of 'fair? what about ... the tax breaks given to the billionaire class every other day of the week'.

a small sop to the most debt-burdened generation in american history is no bad thing. is it perfect and will it please everyone? no, such things can't possibly do that. but it is a small step in the right direction and should encourage people who even aren't directly concerned with their student loans.

the handout is just political theatre, anyway. for anyone with the majority of their loans to pay off, $10k would be re-added in ticks of interest by the time the republicans get back into office. a total non-starter.

what's far more significant is the changes he made to said interest and the repayments structure. now afaik the loan repayments will be capped to no more than 5% of discretionary income (down from 10%) for the majority of lower-middle income earners. eminently sensible. and the interest and speculation has been reigned in. the majority of underemployed graduates are barely even making a dent in the interest accruals alone. a totally stupid system.

nobody who is making $120,000+ a year in salary should feel hard done by over $10k of loan forgiveness.

that's like getting mad at Pell grant pogs who get a free ride for sitting on a base playing xbox, in the manner of Jay.

or getting mad that people in gulf coast states get hurricane handout money when you live in an unaffected area.

why would you even care? for a supposedly 'left-wing' person you are awfully into the politics of petty resentment and jealousy, and very seldom into the politics of, y'know, class solidarity and cheering on victories won by working people.

hilarious that a person who had FREE UNIVERSITY moans about things being 'unfair' when debt-burdened millennials get a fractional amount of debt relief. the only thing that's demonstrably 'unfair' is the continuing privatisation of higher-education, which has made it more and more unaffordable for 18 year olds. what's unfair is pressuring and funnelling teenagers into 5- or 6-figure amounts of debt for 40 years before they're even old enough to decide which major they want to study, let alone what career path to take. that's unfair.

Last edited by uziq (2022-08-25 05:39:58)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX
Two people earning $50k/yr

One repaid their loan

The other did not - but gets $10k from the govt.

Explain how this is fair.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

israel is a fact and has been, regardless of your whimpering. if people should 'get over' harms done to them generations ago, why are you still whining about the existence of israel? seems like a contradiction of your own facile principles.
I'm complaining that Israel is stealing land and murdering people as we speak just like, you know, Putin's Russia.

again, this is your moronic thinking being parroted back at you, not mine.
no u.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+491|2946

Dilbert_X wrote:

Two people earning $50k/yr

One repaid their loan

The other did not - but gets $10k from the govt.

Explain how this is fair.
lol i love the idea that someone on $50k a year would voluntarily pay back their student loans above the minimum/mandatory rate. or that it’s even possible to pay back a student loan in its entirety as well as live an independent life if you’re earning $50k. the average student loan debt for undergraduate alone is $25,000, with the potential to be dizzyingly higher if you got an ‘elite’ education, which seems to be the image here that mock-outraged conservatives are adopting (blue collar people paying for fancy pants graduates!).

i think living at home for your entire life might have given you a slightly disconnected sense of living expenses and debt burdens. nobody on $50k is going to be able to pay back a loan of $25,000 out of ‘lifestyle’ cutbacks and being ‘prudent’. that's just not how people treat these govt-guaranteed undergraduate loans.

this isn't about rewarding lazy shirkers and punishing virtuous hardworking people, dilbert. the debt-burdened graduates of today are priced out of property ownership, forced to live in rentier markets in expensive cities (where their graduate-level work is found), and generally hemmed in on all sides by stagnating wages and rising living costs. yes, you can say it's the decline of america and the crumbling of its middle-class, etc, but don't put the responsibility for that on the wallets of naive 18 year olds who are pressured their entire lives to attend college. that is ethically repugnant.

something like 87% of all graduates haven't repaid their loans. the total value of student debt in the USA is $1.2 trillion dollars. that's 1/2 the cost of the combined iraq-afghan wars over 20 years of conflict. do you think that debt is going to be paid-off if only millennials stopped buying avocados and cancelled their netflix subscriptions? ok, boomer.

40% of all graduates, up until the recent covid-related moratorium, weren't contributing anything to their loans. just accruing interest – which is all the student loans companies need to bundle up and sell on those loans to other companies. it's a big speculative bubble. the entire system is bullshit and only benefits the speculators at the top. everyone knows it. funnily enough ... the same people who are complaining about debt forgiveness are the same people who advance this privatised higher-ed ponzi scheme. really make u think.

one of the main student finance companies in the US just put their name on a a $160 million dollar stadium deal for some baseball or basketball team or some bullshit. the CEO of the same company took $6 million in bonuses last year. they're all sitting happy regardless of whether the fucking debt gets paid or not.

now talk to me about what's 'fair'.

Last edited by uziq (2022-08-25 19:42:56)

uziq
Member
+491|2946
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbCg4TJWYAANGfu?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbCg4TLWYAAxCmC?format=jpg&name=large

lmao. sassed by the WH.

“the loans of wall street advisors and lawyers”, yeah because they’re definitely the people who qualify for this debt forgiveness. the republicans can’t even line up their basic arguments properly.

Last edited by uziq (2022-08-25 19:08:02)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,015|6265|USA

These are all over the place right now.

Conservatives want to complain about looming population declines and stuff like abortions, but don't support legislation that would help adults in their physical prime start financially sustainable families. Imagine being a geriatric at your son's high school graduation because you had to spend like 30 years paying off loans.

A lot of these states may come crashing down with the water crisis, anyway.
uziq
Member
+491|2946
conservatives don't actually want healthy and productive families. they mostly want fighting-age men to go die in their wars for them and debt slaves to keep enriching their private equity portfolios.

it's crazy to me the things that make conservatives the most angry in american life: accessible healthcare, abortions, and now affordable education.

like what do these people stand for? lol. is there a single positive ideal or vision in the republican party?

Last edited by uziq (2022-08-25 19:59:13)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+607|3213
Right wingers keep talking about their hypothetical ad where a partying yuppie disrespects a blue collar worker. "Thank you for paying my student loan loser!" They think some variation of that will juice turnout.

Two big wrong assumptions with this ad. (1) Plenty of blue collar workers with loan debt will get helped by this. (2) Educated/white collar workers don't think about blue collar workers enough to punch down on them for giggles. The class animosity only goes one way.

I also think it is a weird way to approach politics/life to pitch ad where your side gets dunked on like a chain email.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+491|2946
not to mention the mendaciousness of the republican party presenting itself as the party of the 'little man' when it's the party beholden to a billionaire tax-fraud and the super-rich.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,015|6265|USA

uziq wrote:

conservatives don't actually want healthy and productive families. they mostly want fighting-age men to go die in their wars for them and debt slaves to keep enriching their private equity portfolios.
Ahem, well, that's sort of how it is, isn't it. Not as attractive as an epithet as "the party of American family values" though.

it's crazy to me the things that make conservatives the most angry in american life: accessible healthcare, abortions, and now affordable education.

like what do these people stand for? lol. is there a single positive ideal or vision in the republican party?
I feel quite numbed to it after a living in this country for so long.

The "positive" stuff, among my above, are other things they present as. "The party of freedom, independence, self-determination. It's the Democrats who are the people not wanting you to have these things. Look at how they historically take these things away from you. The things they say about you behind your back!"

When dragged by the ear to account for its corruption, "er, well, the Dems did it too! Why don't you want to talk about that!"

I'm sure spin-doctors could come up with 'net positives' for ingesting tapeworms. The other side doesn't want you to have an intestinal buddy, after all. What are they hiding?
uziq
Member
+491|2946
https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/sta … Oo_xaa7gbQ

grandpa is ancient and incoherent but he’s right.

so funny that USA/UK have become inured to giving immense handouts and reliefs to the super-rich and yet we demonise fucking students who don’t own any assets and likely never will. lmfao. truly a society drinking the kool-aid.

“oh, we are going to spend £100bn in the next 3 years keeping private energy companies afloat and their shareholders in the money? we’re going to tabulate it against our national debt for 25 years and pay it off with increased taxes? sounds good to me. just don’t give sharon the single mother down the road a single penny. she is lazy!”

the amount of money our societies spaff up the wall on the market-immune billionaire class is hilarious. cronyism is the norm. but if you give a student 10k in debt relief it’s the fucking capo apocalypse! these people have no work ethic!!!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,015|6265|USA

I've heard some conservatives grumbling about the Republican politicians complaining about that. I don't really think it's going to be a turning point for most, but I can kick back and watch.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX
I don't have a problem with tax and spend, as long as its productive - which neither side does.

Blowing taxes on personal or corporate welfare isn't productive.
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uziq
Member
+491|2946
ah, yes, higher education, aka 'personal welfare'.

i really do wonder what all the belt-tightening and poverty porn is for if a rich and prosperous society can't encourage access to education and healthcare.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX
I've said education should be cheap and free.

But we also need hypersonic stealth fighters, for a multitude of reasons.
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uziq
Member
+491|2946
if you think education should be cheap/free, why are you kvetching about a tokenistic amount being wiped off people’s totals? biden also made meaningful reforms to the loan system and repayment structure. changes, which you know, effectively make college loans more affordable.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX
Because its unfair, dur.

Why not just give every American $10,000?

What about people who took out a $10,000 loan to buy a car so they could get to work?
Or spent $10,000 on tools?

Aren't they people too?
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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,015|6265|USA

Er. To quote so many of our Republicans, "life's unfair."

Besides which, people have been pointedly referring to six and seven figure debt forgivenesses enjoyed by those complaining about the slice of struggling Americans given some relief. Why isn't the argument to give everyone $900,000? There's no such thing as a free yacht.

If they're so fucking concerned about the everyone else they think $10k is shafting, why aren't they pushing to add business startup incentives, entrepreneur programs, and even, dare I say it, retroactive college debt relief.

Come ON, dilbert.
uziq
Member
+491|2946

Dilbert_X wrote:

Because its unfair, dur.
how is it unfair? again, you sound awfully right-wing and mealy mouthed for someone who claims to have broadly left sympathies.

i paid off a private loan for my postgraduate degree. it was a big hit to my personal budget for 5 years or so.

why would i be mad that other people who are struggling and burdened with similar debts get some help? i have a problem with the student financing system, the banks, the politicians who are pushing expensive privatisation schemes, etc. i'm not mad at some poor schlub and my peer who also has to grind and struggle through the same hurdles.

if university was made free tomorrow i would consider it a very, very good thing. a step in the right direction. not spend my time moaning that 'it's unfair' because i had to pay blah blah blah. that's not how politics works, man.

as the beneficiary of a free university education, talking to someone who paid an exorbitant amount, i think you should keep schtum and ban all mentions of ‘fairness’ from your vocabulary tbh.

do you think it's unfair when someone affected by a natural disaster gets a payout from the govt? do you think it's unfair when someone with cancer gets expensive medical treatment, paid for by your tax dime, when you don't use the medical system? it's not unfair. it's for the good of society as a whole.

you are so thatcherite that it's hilarious. your concept of society doesn't extend beyond your own bank balance and 'what's in it for me'.

What about people who took out a $10,000 loan to buy a car so they could get to work?
Or spent $10,000 on tools?
ehmmm there are dozens of tax deductibles for trades people and their profession-related expenses. if you think a plumber is hard done by because a student gets $10k off their loan then LOL. the average income for a person in trade is about 2x the average graduate salary, too.

last time i checked, an electrician or plumber doesn't begin their working life with $30,000 or $120,000 of debt. they aren't induced to go to highly financialized private 'elite trade schools' where they effectively pay $750 per contact hour with their teachers.

i filed my tax return last month. the amount of special dispensations for people in the trades, or construction, is immense. they can offset so many expenses against their income tax. don't even try with this 'poor oppressed blue collar man' thing. you surely know that you are talking nonsense.

why would anyone take a $10k loan to just get a form of transport to work? that's just patently a bad financial choice. i've been employed for a decade and i've never owned a car or driven to work. let alone taken a large loan in order to do so. that's just stupidity. um, get a fucking bus? just a thought. what sort of conscientious eco-warrior insists on getting a ten grand car for their commute? you're really revealing a lot about yourself and your attitudes when you use these specious examples. a $10,000 car is not an 'essential expense' for anyone. and a trade person can literally write off a work van against their tax accounts and file it as an investment in their business. dumb arguments dilbert, very dumb.

Last edited by uziq (2022-08-28 00:03:16)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,790|5600|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

tldr
Bottom line is you think tax dollars should go to your clan and not another clan.

Tax deductibles don't work for everything, and only pay ~30%, not the full amount.
They don't work for private transport - and amazingly buses don't go everywhere and not everyone feels safe in remote areas in an old vehicle.

Education should be free, so should lots of things, in America and other countries they aren't.

This plan doesn't actually address anything and will only piss a significant number of people off.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+607|3213
There's a lot going on with student loan reform. The changes made to the repayment system as a result of Biden's recent declaration are just the latest in a long line.

The Biden admin has been discharging billions in loans made to fraudulent for profit schools. People were sounding the alarm about these places back in the early '10's but little was done since Democrats couldn't pass anything from '11 to '21 due to Congress and presidency in GOP hands. There still needs to be work done here but I don't expect a big bill to right the system anytime soon.
...
Anyhow, a lot of this is culture war nonsense. Republicans don't like college student political activism. They hope they can get a lot of bitter blue collar workers to vote against the Democrats now. I am skeptical. Trying to rally the lumpenproletariat. Good luck.

https://y.yarn.co/4d8c1202-6a06-4171-af01-2e0fd88083cb_text.gif
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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