Announcement

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/nf43FxS
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,275|6015

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Advocates for migrants have spoken about how migrants will be able to make up the labor shortage. Horrible argument to make.

Do you think migrants would be a net positive for the nations they are going to?
"it depends"

wages have shot through the roof in aus, even in professional services due to lack of migration. good for me i guess.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
uziq
Member
+461|2750
migrants are not refugees, macbeth. they are different groups. nobody is looking to syria to help solve the labour shortage in america.

Do you think migrants would be a net positive for the nations they are going to?
i don't know, were your family a net-positive to america? how about the polish? what about the germans? the sikh community? the irish? the italians? asian-americans from japan or china? mexicans and latinos? have they been net positives?

you're muddying the debate on refugees and asylum with all this weak-piss, crypto-islamophobic stuff about economic migration anyway. nobody is looking to the middle-east as a source of labour.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-05 05:55:58)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+559|3018
Thank you for telling me what the immigration/refugee debate is in the country I live in.

Unless my eyes and ears were deceiving me, I have seen people argue that Afghan refugees can be used to alleviate our labor shortage. Of course this isn't mainstream Democrat belief but it is something people say when trying to explain away the legion of issue that widespread refugee settlement will have in the U.S. There are no good arguments in favor of Afghan refugee resettlement though.

i don't know, were your family a net-positive to america? how about the polish? what about the germans? the sikh community? the irish? the italians? asian-americans from japan or china? mexicans and latinos? have they been net positives?
Each group has/had their own growing pains. Islam, which you brought up and not me, has caused some issues in many places these last 2 decades.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+461|2750
and also not caused any issues in many places. you don't mention those nearly as often, though.

i have never heard anyone suggest using war-traumatized refugees as a ready source of exploitable labour. then again, i don't read breitbart or whackjob right-wing news websites.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+559|3018
Irish, Poles, Italians, Germans, Mexicans...my beloved Catholics.

Mexican migrants are the real victims. In the grand scheme of things, Muslim migration to Europe and everything that came with it hurts efforts to advocate for Mexican refugees. Again, the real victims.

I am not naïve enough to think that if Europe had never taken in a single Muslim since the year 2000 people like ATG would suddenly not be so hateful against Mexicans. But I think a lot of white genocide paranoia that bubbled up as a result of the drama in Europe would have not taken root in the U.S. The racism drama in Europe complicates efforts in my part of the world to advocate for my beloved Catholics. Why should I be so gung ho for more Muslim immigration?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,975|6070|USA

Keeping in mind of course that racism and the pseudoscientific hot garbage, hanging on each other's coattails, predate the refugee and migrant stuff in recent history.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+559|3018
Yeah but it would be great if there were no Europeans rattled by Muslims sharing the reading list with Americans every time something went down in Europe.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,975|6070|USA

The racists/bigots on both continents would find excuses regardless. You've played Crusader Kings, right?
uziq
Member
+461|2750
if only we had available frameworks of thought or analysis which considered these socio-historical trends of migration and native resentment ... if only we could analyse the economics of such labour movements, such differentials of wages, such systems of exploitation ... without playing a tittle-tattle game of checkers using 'muslims', 'mexicans', 'indians', etc, etc, as the supposed 'causes' of resentment ... hmm ... if only.

as newbie said, cultural conservatives will find any reason for resentment.

workers on the bottom-rung have more in common with one another than differences. the historical processes and system at work deserve examination, not endless ressentiments between the american blue-collar class and indigent mexican labour, for e.g. these aren't issues of race or religion causing considerable conflict or clashes of interest.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+559|3018

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

The racists/bigots on both continents would find excuses regardless. You've played Crusader Kings, right?
Elections in this country are won by slim margins. 10 or even 5 percent reduction in the Americans rabbit holed into race realism by European drama is significant enough.

I remember when this forum was active many of the loudest advocates for non-white Americans were Europeans. For whatever reason. How many of those people do you think aged or were eventually red pill into conservatism due to the migrant crisis over there? Do you remember CamPoe? What if a Muslim blew up him?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+461|2750
you have an extremely distorted vision of how much 'the migrant crisis' has played into 'european drama' there tbh. the far-right is on the ascendancy for any number of reasons, sure, but its 'rise' is still pretty modest in most european states and seldom equals any major electoral victories (you see this time and time again with france: media circus about their 'dangerous new presidential candidate', they all blow off some steam in the primaries and grumble, and then vote for the nice centrist candidate again). and the migrant issue has been blown out of all proportion by said right-wing groups and their lackeys in the right-wing media/press.

the centrist-liberal line is very much one of angela merkel's "wir schaffen das". don't be fooled by right-wing conservative governments playing the migration card for easy votes. the conservative party in the UK, for instance, needs to be seen as being tough on 'boat people' and migrants because their remaining core voter base are ageing white people -- ditto to the republican party. you can see that for what it is: desperate pact-making with the devil in a redoubt against the inevitable. it's not particularly big and it's not particularly clever.

it's interesting that nigel farage and the hardline brexiteers, who have always been fringe even within the conservative party, despite the recent electoral calculus, made a trans-atlantic relationship with trump, particularly in the bannon era. make of that what you will. most european states are not up in arms or full of 'drama' because of migrants. your average european middle-class voter is about as enraged and passionate about this stuff as your average educated american is a supporter of steve bannon and breitbart, which is to say: not very much.

i've said this many times here, but the rise in the right-wing in europe is down to the EU/UK's disastrous handling of the 2008 financial crisis. neoliberalism bailed out the banks and guilty actors tout court and foisted huge amounts of debt and public services cutbacks on workers. that's what has created resentment which has been opportunistically funnelled into nativism, xenophobia and right-wing alarmism since then. the migrant crisis does very directly affect greece, italy, etc (and latterly poland via belarus) in their border policing, and many of the northern and western states have had to accept tens of thousands of asylum seekers annually; but this stuff is very much being played out of all proportion by the right wing. same deal with scandinavian right-wing parties and media talking about their 'epidemic of crime' because of migrants. these are very, very old tropes.

i can confidently say that most european liberals' commitment to asylum-seekers or multiculturalism has not been shaken by the ructions from the right-wing and the new age of populist nativism. these have become ‘hot button’ topics because political parties on the right know that it plays into the fears and resentments of their dissatisfied working classes (whom they have fucked over economically, not an influx of migrants).

it's also pretty clear that american conservatives have very selectively and opportunistically used the european situation to play on the fears of americans. they want to make it look as bad as possible. this is also a very, very old trope. american conservatives have been talking about 'birming-HAM' and other european cities with the infamous 'no-go zones for whites' rhetoric for over a decade. this stuff makes most europeans scratch their heads; it's not our reality.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-05 08:45:08)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+559|3018
The worries about your "no go zones" are transplanted suburban fear about American big cities. I went to college with a lady who never traveled to NYC despite living next to it. The city was "scary". There was drama in /r/NewJersey over a TikTok made by some suburban American about how scary Jersey City is.

Meanwhile Jersey City
https://www.bbh.com/us/en/bbh-who-we-are/office-locations/jersey-city-office/_jcr_content/root/container/container/teaser_1812278513_co.dnaimg.90.1024.rectangle_jpg.jpeg/1612284786696/gettyimages-869749824-jersey-city-cover.jpeg
Look at that beautiful sprawling megapolis
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/y_QCCUweY-1iN-5bG1KPhFBBPZ4=/0x0:3888x2463/1200x800/filters:focal(1633x921:2255x1543)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/66490138/1211876597.jpg.0.jpg
I live here.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+461|2750
the migrant crisis is absolutely a part of european politics now, i mean it's one of the biggest humanitarian crises thus far this century and a huge challenge to any western nation, on a national or supra-national (i.e. EU) wide basis, to deal with.

but the idea that european liberals are now doubting their multiculturalism or pluralistic tendencies, which is tantamount to reneging on liberalism itself; or that they've suddenly come to regret multiculturalism as a 'failed experiment' (a big right-wing buzz phrase, that); or that they've been duped - suckers!- into inviting loads of muslims into their societies who have then undermined their harmony and cohesion, etc ... all this is fervid right-wing imaginarium stuff.

you can definitely find quotes of david cameron or macron flirting with the above lines, but they’re very consciously (and cynically) party-politicking comms in order to try and keep a certain portion of their traditional voter base from drifting away to fringe parties. not the mainstream view at all, and many people from within their own parties/tendencies are highly critical of such manoeuvres.

also lol it seems funny to me that someone from NYC would fear jersey city.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-05 09:21:11)

Larssen
Member
+90|1186
I think any sane liberal has by now also come to the conclusion that too much mingling is too easily too explosive. Acknowledging identities as temporal social constructs is one thing, believing them to be easily 'reprogrammed' and equalised another, and an optimistic folly. It's evidently too difficult for the vast majority of people to separate themselves from their tribalism and not seek out conflict along identitarian lines. Esp. in the contradictions that arise in multiculturalism vs the ingrained ideas of nationalism, 'blood' and 'one country/one people'. Or the societal complexities that present themselves in the notion of equal opportunity when the pie is cut in more than a few ways.

We've talked about this before but it becomes especially problematic if identity and socioeconomic status align. Which seems to be exactly what immigration in the last decades has entailed.

Last edited by Larssen (2022-01-05 12:27:19)

uziq
Member
+461|2750
who ever spoke about reprogramming?
Larssen
Member
+90|1186
uh, just me using that term now. implying that people will let go of any nationalistic/ethnic narcissisms when they cross borders or see others cross them. Or that we can always teach and learn people to do so.

Last edited by Larssen (2022-01-05 12:44:50)

uziq
Member
+461|2750
https://twitter.com/bestforbritain/stat … 05731?s=21

i just love it.

https://twitter.com/docrussjackson/stat … 94401?s=21

what a clown.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-05 13:15:05)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,940|5930|949

Does he stand on the northern shore for 8 hours a day? That may be the ruddiest man I’ve ever seen.
uziq
Member
+461|2750
different connotation here. to get a face that red involves a lot of luncheons at private gentlemen’s clubs on pall mall and daily lashings of port and claret.

most endearingly the old boys wear corduroy in the same colour very often. or paired with mustard colour cords.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+559|3018
Russia is sending peacekeeping forces to K-stan to put down the protest. Amazing job by the CIA to distract them from Ukraine by staging a civil war in central Asia. What is the Taliban up to? Let's get the band back together.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+461|2750
incidentally the hash rate of bitcoin dropped by 20% when the leader pulled the plug on their internet. poof. gives you some idea how many russians/chinese had built mining farms there.
uziq
Member
+461|2750
https://twitter.com/vicky_acab/status/1 … 13957?s=21

this is pretty fun analysis. my ‘incidentally’ is thus misplaced. is bitcoin partially responsible for kazakhstan?
Larssen
Member
+90|1186
Been reading/watching a lot about urban planning and development recently. Way back in uni I once followed a course or two about urbanisation wrt development studies so the topic has always been in the back of my mind. Here's a few well produced/researched videos that are definitely worth a watch. The B1M in particular is a very good channel that I recommend.







What's particularly interesting to me are topics like sustainable urban planning and ensuring affordable housing in metropolitan hubs. Both seemingly elusive goals to city planners in most western countries. Between these two there's two factors that stick out to me; the privatisation of social housing in western Europe and the prioritisation of mega-billion development projects in most part of the globe, and city and neighbourhood planning centred around cars (which is very prevalent in the USA and also modelled in a city like Dubai, or many Chinese cities).

Car-centric planning is especially annoying/irksome if you start thinking about it. For most dense metropolitan places it really seems such an out of place 50s view of the future that we just went and implemented everywhere. It perhaps made sense in an era of larger rural populations and on-going rural to urban migration, but in actual city life cars are really nothing but a nuisance and extremely pollutive to boot. You'd reckon that with proper planning and investment, most major cities can be made almost entirely car-free and wholly managed through public transport, bike lanes, walkability and perhaps here and there designated logistic supply routes via either train or truck. Especially from a POV of sustainability I reckon it would hugely help towards climate goals to just strive for the removal of cars pretty much everywhere.

Another topic is how future-proof skyscrapers really are... cities like New York are going to get such massive headaches around the repurposing of them and necessary renovation or demolishing over the next years/centuries.

Last edited by Larssen (2022-01-08 08:35:36)

uziq
Member
+461|2750
'sustainable' building is an oxymoron and a buzz-word sold by architecture practices, politicians, and major developers acting in tandem and greasing each other's palms. the most sustainable form of building is not building at all; or, rather, repurposing existing land/property, renovating, or expanding upwards.

the privatization of valuable communal grounds, parks, estates, etc, in city centres is a notable sin of the recent marketized era. central london's main 1/2 zones now is just a vacated bubble of speculative wealth, properties owned by foreign oligarchs or arabs/chinese/etc and places to wash their money. not a living 'centre' at all. and whenever they pull down one of the social housing projects from the comparatively utopian 1960s/1970s, for e.g., they pull down like 2,000 houses and 'regenerate' the area with like 0.5% of the affordable housing that was previously there. it's urban planning as social eugenics.

with that said, i'd hardly say that 'greener cities' or 'sustainable city centres' is an impossible goal. lots of smaller cities in europe have transitioned away from the car and city-bypass/city-parking model of the 1920s-1970s.

super interesting topic, though, you're right. i think the 'billionaires' row or whatever they call those horrible, pencil-thin skyscrapers composed of cube units of obscene wealth along central park is going to be seen as one of the more egregious expressions of our egregious age, tbh.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-08 08:40:11)

Larssen
Member
+90|1186
There's a number of cities that are doing quite well, but the removal of cars from city centres and expansion of public transport there is still something that's being put off mostly. Everyone needs to know how to drive, everyone needs a car and there is a fucking massive global automotive industry that needs supporting.

Yes I do think Billionaire's Row will stand as a testament to the age of marketisation/privatisation. But only if that age would soon come to an end. Sadly, the trend is more the opposite. And while greener cityscapes are being built, they're not cheaper at all. I reckon it's entirely possible the current trend of global metropole developments can continue for the rest of this century if not the next one as well. Saddest part is seeing people who had been living in these cities like London, Berlin, Paris, NY for generations now being completely pushed out due to housing prices and general cost of living. It's like these places are slowly transformed into a playground for a number of global ultrarich that have condo's in every huge city.

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2022 Jeff Minard