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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its not my fault if muslims don't like muslims.
Knowing that the migrants are not taken care of nor are they given opportunities to enter the labour market, does it make sense they travel further to other countries?
If they're really fleeing persecution and death wouldn't they be happy anywhere?
Isn't the major fault really with those countries, not places like Britain and Australia which are generous but can't realistically take all the world's migrants?

It may also be negative association. I once spoke to a bosnian who fled to belgium in the 90s, and he said he skipped over austria/germany because those countries were the birthplace of the type of fascism that inspired the serbs. Do you fault him for not just settling there?
Same answer.
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uziq
Member
+393|2366
syrians fleeing syria would not be happy in any adjoining or neighbouring nation, no. are you fucking dense?
Larssen
Member
+62|802

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its not my fault if muslims don't like muslims.
Knowing that the migrants are not taken care of nor are they given opportunities to enter the labour market, does it make sense they travel further to other countries?
If they're really fleeing persecution and death wouldn't they be happy anywhere?
Isn't the major fault really with those countries, not places like Britain and Australia which are generous but can't realistically take all the world's migrants?
How can you be happy in a place where you can't provide in your own basic needs legally? If you have no or barely any income nor legal papers, how do you go about finding a roof over your head and putting food on the table?

No it's not our fault those countries suck, but neither is it the migrants' fault though? Why aren't you intent on holding ME countries to account for not respecting refugee conventions? Rather advocating to ignore them ourselves. What a great answer. Will that magically stop migration or just make the rather miserable circumstances of refugees even worse?

You know there's some 30 million refugees globally right now. I don't think the west has even absorbed 5% of the world's fleeing peoples.

Dilbert let's put the few dinghies off the australian coast in perspective with some other stats: at the height of the syrian civil war, 25% of the population of Lebanon was a syrian fleeing the war. Turkey has also absorbed over 3 million syrians. And you kick and scream over the I dunno, 5000, maybe 10,000 syrians that somehow and for whatever reason arrived in Australia? Oh no we can't absorb any more. It's too much. Why weren't ALL of them in Lebanon?!

Last edited by Larssen (2021-04-19 03:01:05)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX
Yes we should hold other nations to account, and crimp the disruption which creates refugees in the first place.
Thats what the UN is supposed to be for.

"the few dinghies" peaked at 100,000 people/yr and would have spiraled higher, its not manageable.
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Larssen
Member
+62|802
I find it somewhat hilarious you'd simultaneously support the UN and ignore its legal documents.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+452|2634
There aren't enough resources in the world to give everyone the quality of life people in the first world enjoy. The first step to solving the migrant crisis is to acknowledge the world isn't big enough for all of us.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

I find it somewhat hilarious you'd simultaneously support the UN and ignore its legal documents.
If the members of the UN actually got together we wouldn't have refugees, unfortunately its been broken since the US manipulated us all into the attack on Iraq, and since the US has trampled over everyone else to protect Israel.

Anyway, refugees can express a preference on where they go once they're in the refugee system. Trying to jump to the head of the queue by illegally entering a country doesn't fly.

I'm not sure where you're coming from when many EU members don't fulfil their obligations so most refugees and migrants want to get out of the EU to Britain.
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uziq
Member
+393|2366

SuperJail Warden wrote:

There aren't enough resources in the world to give everyone the quality of life people in the first world enjoy. The first step to solving the migrant crisis is to acknowledge the world isn't big enough for all of us.
extremely helpful advice to someone whose home has just been bombed or whose spouse has just been tortured and murdered.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+452|2634
Ideally they would know that fact before tragedy befell them.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Unfortunately few countries can take all the people who have been terrorised.

A start would be to stop countries terrorising and displacing people, maybe one day Israel will take in refugees for example.
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uziq
Member
+393|2366
ah, yes, israel, noted anti-immigration country with a hard line on refugees.
Larssen
Member
+62|802

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

I find it somewhat hilarious you'd simultaneously support the UN and ignore its legal documents.
If the members of the UN actually got together we wouldn't have refugees, unfortunately its been broken since the US manipulated us all into the attack on Iraq, and since the US has trampled over everyone else to protect Israel.

Anyway, refugees can express a preference on where they go once they're in the refugee system. Trying to jump to the head of the queue by illegally entering a country doesn't fly.

I'm not sure where you're coming from when many EU members don't fulfil their obligations so most refugees and migrants want to get out of the EU to Britain.
Dilbert, if you're fleeing war you probably already crossed the border illegally.

Your conception of a refugee and the expectations you have of them are just so far removed from reality. It's as though your ideal vision is to just have them all rounded up into makeshift UN refugee camps and sit & wait there until 'war is over & they can return'. Out of sight, out of mind, maybe we'll send a bag of rice every once in a while.

It doesn't require much of your albeit limited empathic ability to realise that nobody wants to put up with that shit. People flee in the hopes of resuming life with a semblance of normalcy elsewhere.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX
Of course, but once again, if they skip through a dozen perfectly safe countries with the same ethnic and religious makeup as themselves to get to and illegally enter a wholly alien but rich country are they really refugees?
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Larssen
Member
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People keep saying this but how many borders are there between Syria and Greece?

Tons of people also have family, roots or other connections in many different places. If Australia became a warzone tomorrow, I don't think you'd stick it out in Indonesia or NZ but probably move to the UK yeah. How many countries did you skip along the way?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX
I'm a UK citizen, your point is moot.
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Larssen
Member
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So I take it you expect that your fellow aussies should all just flee to NZ or Indonesia. Any further is unacceptable. Unless, of course, you can appeal to passport privilege.

Last edited by Larssen (2021-04-23 03:54:59)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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If its safe why not?

No-one has a right to migrate to whichever country they want.
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Larssen
Member
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Indonesia most likely doesn't really have a robust asylum infrastructure nor will it be easy to find pathways into the labour market for much of the aus population. Many of them would remain there as illegals, probably facing discrimination from locals, and would have a tough time making ends meet. NZ meanwhile is a tiny country with a tiny population. Now of course it all being the west we can assume there will be plenty aid sent from the US and Europe, but let's pretend the status is akin to random middle eastern or african states. In that case, the number of AUS refugees would vastly outnumber the NZ population and its ability to care for them. That's a nice clusterfuck in the making.

At the end of the day, like with any conflict, you'll see those who flee will disperse across the globe and quite a few would opt to go to the EU, US, Canada. In the case of aus probably millions. Now like you I would love if all refugees just remained far away from me and didn't bother me with their existence, but fact of the matter is that circumstance motivates these people to chase a life worth living elsewhere. That circumstance being war driving them out in the first place, and many uncertainties confronting people along the way. If you flee from the Congo for example, you could be unemployed and illegal in neighbouring Sudan, or you might as well chance it to Europe because you believe they'll actually have a refugee processing system and a labour market worth a damn where you could perhaps build a new life.

In summary if you want to think of solutions, you might want to diagnose the right problems first. Also in proposing 'solutions' please keep in mind the fact that the places you like to live in are generally signatories to refugee conventions and may even have them enshrined directly or indirectly in constitutional law. Shooting civilians fleeing war or making them drown at sea or otherwise locking them up in concentration camp style habitations, aren't legally acceptable.

It is above all horribly depressing that I have to appeal to legal argument because I just know you'd be fine with those options if they were on the table.

Last edited by Larssen (2021-04-23 07:29:31)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX
Incorrect, we shut down illegal migration so that they wouldn't drown at sea.

Britain and Europe are pussying around -> lots of people are drowning at sea.
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Larssen
Member
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Weren't you just now complaining about the handful of syrians that entered australia?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX
Haven't mentioned Syrians, nor have I suggested 'shooting civilians' or 'making them drown at sea' or 'locking them up in concentration camps'.

You inventing history doesn't mean it happened.
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Larssen
Member
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I'm really astounded at your assumption that 'closing borders' (???) would magically make refugee migration to australia disappear. My concentration camp comment was a jab at how the aus government is currently treating migrants picked up at sea.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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I've never said refugee migration to Australia would disappear either, it would continue as it does now in an orderly manner - ie migrants are sent back and refugees are put into the global system.

Australia doesn't run concentration camps either, you're nuts.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-04-24 04:35:21)

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Larssen
Member
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what the fuck is the global system? Sent back how and where? They're detained indefinitely. Australia literally has mandatory migration detention centres in islands off the main land where journalists are forbidden to enter. They deployed paramilitary units to 'quash' the increase in suicides ffs. You even posted pictures here of those people there rioting due to prolonged detention in poor conditions as proof of their sub-human nature or something. Don't give me this horseshit that you're somehow proponent of a perfectly reasonable system that abides by rules and laws. The whole system has been widely condemned as an infraction of human rights. You're on here complaining about the dysfunction of the UN without caring to follow even the basics of the conventions on refugees - no shit it sucks.

E: Looking into it it also seems a fantastic government corruption scheme. They paid 500 million AUD to a contractor to provide security and maintenance to the facilities for about 2 years of work, while the office of the contractor was in singapore and they were paying the security detail on the island 2 dollars an hour lmao. Someone got rich quick!

Last edited by Larssen (2021-04-24 05:18:27)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,730|5020|eXtreme to the maX
The vast bulk of deaths have been drownings, a robust system has discouraged them from dying at sea - seems like a win.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/interactive/ … ted-deaths

How many are drowning in the mediterranean these days?
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