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most of the recent brexiter xenophobia has been directed towards the poles, who are the most observant and fervent catholics in all of europe, especially their current politics.

xenophobes didn't vote to leave europe because of refugees. that doesn't even make any sense.

boris johnson and co. dangled the scare-story of turkey trying to join, plus 20 years of residual hatred towards eastern europeans who joined the labour market.

try again.

uziq wrote:

novichok found on bottle of water in tomsk hotel room which was supposedly removed from the scene of supposed crime by navalny crew and later given to german authorities

fixed it for you. if that^ doesn't smell of fabrication i don't know what does.

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said earlier this month that tests carried out in Germany showed “unequivocally” that the nerve agent was used to poison Navalny.

very well then. all that remains to be proven is that the substance they call "novichok" has been used to poison him in russia.

The same poison was used in the attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury in 2018.

so they do know which exact poison was used then, don't they? why aren't they telling?

so, just as the dutch intelligence authorities corroborated the findings of the UK on the salisbury case

all that was corroborated is that there was a certain poison in certain people's system. who put it there is another matter entirely.

wow! all of europe conspiring

there's no need for formal conspiracy when interests converge.

let's watch shahter deny this one

unlike you, i don't make any claims here. as i said numerous times, i will agree with you when evidence is shown. nothing conclusive has been provided so far.

well, they've referred the case to the organisation for the prohibition of chemical weapons (OPCW), and NATO are now pressuring the russian government to comply with this international investigation. all you boys have to do is cooperate and clear your good names, right? shouldn't be hard.

or maybe you can conveniently claim, even with international investigations and impartial-scientific bodies, that 'the truth can never prevail'?

what interests converging, by the way? it's in germany's interests to turn on nordstream 2. what interests does a country like france have in scuppering nordstream? you do realise there are still natural gas projects going through turkey, largely providing the same european countries? why aren't those mysteriously being cancelled or held up? it doesn't make any fucking sense to sabotage a hugely expensive project that europe has PAID FOR and nearly completed.

Larssen wrote:

Shahter, whoever put that novichok in him either is a member of the intelligence services or is cleared to the extent that they can obtain it from the intelligence services.

Novichok was created in the soviet union for use against NATO targets. You do the math. Whatever way you twist this, either the GRU or FSB is involved.

shahter seems to be lost in some convoluted, scientifically illiterate argument. 'novichok' does not actually refer to any specific chemical: rather a family of about 4-5 variations thereof. because the news reports are all referring to 'novichok' as a somewhat sensationalist label (anthrax! sarin!), he thinks they haven't provided any evidence of an actual chemical. in reality, western intelligence are aware of the family of chemicals known as novichok, they can test for them, they have been chemically identified, etc. but the news reports don't name the specific substance; ergo, it's a bullshit lie. very confusing reasoning.

three pages ago he was saying 'nobody knows what novichok is', it doesn't refer to anything, etc. now he's saying that because we all know what it is, any world power could basically search wikipedia and cook it up in a garden shed. or something. i don't think he really knows what he's on about, flapping around wildly from one argument to another.

why would any european intelligence agency want to poison navalny? you really think the british and german intelligence forces are conspiring to kill russian figures, to please ... america? this is full-on whack job conspiracy thinking.

Last edited by uziq (2020-09-19 08:16:02)

Making novichok is a multimillion industrial process that is chemically complicated and not public knowledge. The only entities that would consider such a venture are countries, specifically the (military) intelligence community. It remained a close guarded secret despite the collapse of the SU and only became known in the west in the 90s.

We now have a pattern of people who you consider 'western puppets' being poisoned with novichok. Skripal is a former GRU employee and was a double agent for the west. We know how you feel about navalny. The pussy riot guy also showed similar symptoms.

It is bizarre that you would rather conjure a convoluted conspiracy theory to explain away these attacks that would necessarily include the west turning on its own allies instead of just pointing the finger at the obvious suspects.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-09-19 08:26:58)

i am really interested to see the outcome of the organisation for the prohibition of chemical weapons investigation. it should put to rest all this conspiratorial, russian-media-peddled bullshit about them being poisoned by 'not novichok' or some other agent. the idea that other nations are now manufacturing novichok in secret to 'frame' russia is just arrant nonsense of the highest order. at any time in history there have only been a handful of facilities making a quantity of any known chemical weapon (vx, sarin, etc). it is incredibly costly, high-tech, and would be in contravention of the chemical weapons treaty.

so the UK or germany is risking becoming a pariah state, in contravention of the CWC, to manufacture small amounts of a russian nerve agent? to frame putin and cancel pipelines? when they already have enough reason for sanctions (crimea, ukraine, downed jetliners, etc) and already have PAID for the pipelines? when there's already several other pipeline projects in process/operation, anyway?

what a clusterfuck the russian mind has been left in. more holes than a swiss cheese.

Larssen wrote:

Making novichok is a multimillion industrial process that is chemically complicated and not public knowledge. The only entities that would consider such a venture are countries, specifically the (military) intelligence community. It remained a close guarded secret despite the collapse of the SU and only became known in the west in the 90s.

uh-huh. so you do agree that it's not only russia who has access to the shit. very good.

We now have a pattern of people who you consider 'western puppets' being poisoned with novichok. Skripal is a former GRU employee and was a double agent for the west. We know how you feel about navalny. The pussy riot guy also showed similar symptoms.

whatever. i'm still waiting for the evidence.

It is bizarre that you would rather conjure a convoluted conspiracy theory to explain away these attacks that would necessarily include the west turning on its own allies

after they sucked the "allies" dry - why not? navalny, who's a convicted felon, has no ratings and generally does fuck all is a lot less useful than navalny poisoned by "horrible radioactive nerve agent" by putin the tyrant. same goes for skripal.

instead of just pointing the finger at the obvious suspects.

there are innumerable ways those "allies" to the west could nave been disposed off reliably. instead, the "intelligence agencies" - which, you claim, must be behind these incidents - chose a weapon-grade nerve agent. which is about as good an assassination tool as a wet noodle. and failed miserably three times - is that it? well, you know, we have very different notions of "obvious" you and i.

shahter either asks for 'evidence' or 'motives', but he can't provide a good motive for assassinating navalny at all. all this conspiratorial shit about pipelines doesn't make any sense.

what contested markets? europe and russia have a mutually beneficial arrangement with natural gas/gazprom. what are the alternatives, here? you think a militant deep state shadow organization of german greens are using russian chemical weapons to murder international figures? do you live inside a spy novel or something? or is it BP and shell and big oil companies who are secretly synthesising novichok to kill off their natural gas competitors?

you think you have some nuanced relation to the truth but you're basically in the subterranean world of QAnon.

it's really funny to me that your mantra in this thread has been 'evidence, evidence, evidence', and yet you casually claim that MI6 and the CIA 'have access to novichok'. errrrm, citation please??? where is the fucking EVIDENCE for this?

Last edited by uziq (2020-09-19 09:03:18)

Shahter wrote:

there are innumerable ways those "allies" to the west could nave been disposed off reliably. instead, the "intelligence agencies" - which, you claim, must be behind these incidents - chose a weapon-grade nerve agent. which is about as good an assassination tool as a wet noodle. and failed miserably three times - is that it? well, you know, we have very different notions of "obvious" you and i.

I would say a weapons grade difficult to detect nerve agent is a rather good way of getting rid of someone. The catch is that intelligence agency Y won't know if intelligence agency X is aware of said nerve agent and knows what to look for.

Furthermore, perhaps a low-dose not absolutely fatal attack may be intentional. They may also be field testing different variants. OR they indeed just failed.

I'm sure an adequate assessment was made of possible consequences. In the world of intelligence there's usually a red team/devil's advocate of sorts present when sensitive information is gathered or operations are planned. This is a team of people whose literal job is to find any angle from which they can shoot down proposals and to list possible negative outcomes before a final decision is made. Whatever the case, novichok ended up being used on navalny and there is no other possible perpetrator but an intelligence service.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-09-19 09:06:00)

uziq wrote:

what contested markets? europe and russia have a mutually beneficial arrangement with natural gas/gazprom.

uh-huh.

what are the alternatives, here?

there

you think a militant deep state shadow organization of german greens are using russian chemical weapons to murder international figures?

no.

it's really funny to me that your mantra in this thread has been 'evidence, evidence, evidence', and yet you casually claim that MI6 and the CIA 'have access to novichok'. errrrm, citation please??? where is the fucking EVIDENCE for this?

they know, how to check for it. they know, how to treat the poisoning. but they don't know, how to produce it? and i'm the conspiracy theorist here.

Last edited by Shahter (2020-09-19 09:21:24)

Larssen wrote:

I would say a weapons grade difficult to detect nerve agent is a rather good way of getting rid of someone. The catch is that intelligence agency Y won't know if intelligence agency X is aware of said nerve agent and knows what to look for.

Furthermore, perhaps a low-dose not absolutely fatal attack may be intentional. They may also be field testing different variants. OR they indeed just failed.

OR the whole spectacle is a deliberate fabrication. just as plausible, imo. more plausible, in fact - checks all the boxes and answers all the questions.

I'm sure an adequate assessment was made of possible consequences.

orly? was the outcry and the sanctions that followed included in that assessment? because the life of human trash like skripal and navalny against risk of having one of the most important putin & co's pet project like nord stream 2 shut down is pretty fucking obvious choice imo.

In the world of intelligence there's usually...

i'm not and have never been anywhere near "the world of intelligence". but applying simple logic to the story with navalny being poisoned by "novichok" i can confidently say - one thing the whole schtick simply cannot do without is people poisoning the fucker being utterly insane. regardless of what really happened in salisbury, just seeing how it all turned out, no "intelligence agency" in their right mind would choose to poison navalny with the same shit.