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Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+285|5467|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

what? condemnation of the iraq-afghan wars is near universal in the west. people DO want to try tony blair and bush for war crimes.
very good. keep it up, and let me know when you get the bastard.

what ARE you doing about putin in russia?
there is legitimate opposition to putin in russia. mostly on the left. the problem is, as you rightly pointed in this thread, that people are not ready for the change atm. post-soviet insanity of 90-es is too fresh in people's minds.

... every member of the opposition or every dissident/critic you unanimously declare ‘a piece of shit’, ‘a western puppet’, ‘small fry’, ‘a nobody’
... you effectively silence or discredit any russian who is actively going after putin.
no, just those who you get served with in your media as "russian opposition leaders" - obvious puppets all. there are others, but you don't hear about them, because all your info is second hand and specifically prepared to manipulate your opinion by western propaganda machine.

...belarus.
... i wonder what relevance that could have for putin and his own opposition movement?
no relevance. there is no opposition to putin in russia atm that has any chance to actually threaten the fucktard. putin is a lot better a polititian than lukashenko and he's still overwhelmingly popular.

so no, i don't think there's any connection.

p.s. i do think lukashenko and his "intelligence" it's ridiculous though.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Larssen
Member
+30|579

Shahter wrote:

no, just those who you get served with in your media as "russian opposition leaders" - obvious puppets all. there are others, but you don't hear about them, because all your info is second hand and specifically prepared to manipulate your opinion by western propaganda machine.
WHAT western propaganda machine? You mean to tell me that the thousands of news media from Italy to Norway, Greece to France AND the US, Canada, Australia etc. - all are actually not independent, have no integrity & none of them operate on original reporting? What's next, you're gonna tell me that George Soros controls the information & ideology of 1 billion people?

I suspected it but it is so typical that as soon as someone is considered an opposition leader in any western media, that will instantly deligitimise them in the eyes of the average russian. It's Putin&co's tactic as well - just brand the people opposite from you 'western puppets', especially those who dare say anything about corruption. Et voila, it's a stain that can't be removed. With us or against us, and all those with any sort of western connection are obvious puppets out to ruin beautiful Russia for greedy western corporates.

Meanwhile Russia is run by a maffia boss surrounded by loyal oligarchs, greedily exploiting the country for their own interest. No serious opposition can form at all. But at least he's no western puppet!

Your worldview is so deeply steeped in conspiracy and so cynical it's projected all around you and seems to seriously impair your reasoning capacity.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-09-11 08:47:42)

uziq
Member
+304|2144
shahter is just combining a very elementary and basic left-wing 'ideological critique' of western liberalism, with a sort of asinine and superficial 'media studies'-level analysis of how newspapers and media sources are privately owned/commercial enterprises/etc. i don't know why he thinks he is making some sort of devastating critique of the 'western propaganda machine': this is stuff that every western person knows. he is wielding his tired ideological critiques of democracy as if it isn't fucking old shit. he's not exactly adorno in this.

ironically he talks about how there is no opposition to putin in russia. what he really means by that statement is that there's no decent left-wing opposition to putin in russia. he has been assiduously debunking, denigrating and dismissing the 'liberal' opposition to russia, any attempt to form a stable centre-ground that isn't fucking insane authoritarian-nationalist-fascism, just because it doesn't suit his soviet nostalgia or revolutionary fervour, or what-the-fuck ever. he can't see how HE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM. useful idiots on the hopelessly fragmented, weak, and scattered left are helping putin when they turn away and ignore the murder of liberal journalists or opposition politicians.

then he moans about 'russia not being ready' for a different stage of history or a different form of government. lmao. he's still stuck in leninist-bolshevik mode, totally unwilling to talk to the mensheviks.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX
Pretty funny seeing Blair criticise Johnson for potentially breaking international law.

Didn't Blair lie to parliament and start an illegal war?
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+304|2144
executives always have a specious relationship to truth when it comes to war-making, with or without the support of their parliaments/congresses. that goes for a whole bunch of countries and leaderships across history.

people are rightfully alarmed that the UK, a country predicated on the rule-of-law, is seriously damaging its reputation in the world when it enters into critical trade deals (not only with the EU) on the back of breaking an international treaty. not a good look.
Larssen
Member
+30|579
It is also a very peculiar move. Of course it was understood that informally the UK always had the power to overrule the sections of the withdrawal agreement relating to northern ireland if it felt it were absolutely necessary. But that is the key point: necessity. Cameron is an ass but he's absolutely right when he said it should be a last resort. For reasons I do not know Boris decided to play this hand before the withdrawal negotiations have concluded.

I don't quite understand it and don't really believe him saying that it is merely a safety net to prevent damage in the event of no deal. If it were obvious no deal would happen, he could've chosen to do it at that time and probably still have the commons' backing (in even greater numbers). Why now? It rather seems like an act of sabotage to me, to provoke a tit-for-tat between the EU and UK, perhaps trying to force his way into a no deal triggered by the EU. That would be the only sure way in which he can cement his position.

If the purpose were purely about internal market regulation in the UK I can somewhat see the point, but clearly that isn't why this is being done.

I don't know what's going on in the conservative party but I'm really wondering what their gameplan is in the event of a no deal, and how they're going to maintain the integrity of the UK afterwards. This whole thing is getting really concerning. The immediate economic fallout AND the effects of the pandemic will ruin the country, while at the same time it will tear itself apart politically. I don't see the UK surviving in this scenario.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-09-15 12:01:21)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX
Countries renege on deals, flout the WTO rules etc all the time, this is nothing compared with 'reshaping the middle east'.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+304|2144
it will very likely renew hostilities in ireland and lead to the break-up of the united kingdom.

as fully avoidable, fully cognizant decisions go, it's a very bad one.

you only have sympathy for people in the middle-east when it suits you. please save your white supremacist, white-civilization-is-peak-evolution crocodile tears for the muslim nations. don't you post here about muslim rape gangs out the other side of your mouth?

Last edited by uziq (2020-09-16 02:14:50)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX
I have sympathy for peaceful people everywhere.

I don't really care too much about Ireland, if they could all adopt one of the two branches of Islam they'd probably be a lot happier and get blown up a lot less.

Equally the best thing for the ME would be if the jews could pick a strand and go with it. Seems they're leaning towards Sunni at the present time.

If they went Shia their women could wear burqas instead of shaving their heads and we wouldn't have to see their fat thighs. Seems like a win all round.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-09-16 02:47:40)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+304|2144
u r teh funniest boi eva!!!11one
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX
Of course I'm being facetious, feuding cults propagated since before we understood how the solar system worked should be respected.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+304|2144
the middle-east's problem are as much political as theological.

judiasm isn't much interested in the solar system, anyway, it is largely a rules/law-based system to regulate community norms.

and islam contributed significantly to the history of astronomy so, er, yes, i suppose many muslim thinkers are due some respect in much the same way, presumably, as the christian galileo was? these things are not exactly incompatible with spiritual belief. you do realize how many of your 'scientist dudebros' from your autistic top trumps deck are also genuine religious believers? religious belief has 'propagated' perfectly well and coterminous with the age of science.

whoosh! over your head.
uziq
Member
+304|2144
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … 1600340875

novichok found on bottle of water in tomsk hotel room.

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said earlier this month that tests carried out in Germany showed “unequivocally” that the nerve agent was used to poison Navalny. Subsequent tests in France and Sweden have returned similar results. The same poison was used in the attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury in 2018.
so, just as the dutch intelligence authorities corroborated the findings of the UK on the salisbury case, now the french and swedish political and scientific establishments are conspiring with the germans ... who, don't forget, according to belarus, are conspiring with the polish ...

wow! all of europe conspiring to poison a (supposedly) minor and insignificant russian figure. all of this to cancel a pipeline which is already 98% complete, with europe's funding and at their behest?

let's watch shahter deny this one!

Larssen
Member
+30|579

Dilbert_X wrote:

Countries renege on deals, flout the WTO rules etc all the time, this is nothing compared with 'reshaping the middle east'.
I think you' have to judge these situations in their specific context. This is not comparable to Iraq, in any way.
uziq
Member
+304|2144
also countries reneging on deals tends to happen when circumstances change, i.e. after the agreements have had a bit of fucking mutual use and generally justified their original existence. countries reneging on 'withdrawal agreements', to which they had explicitly signed and fucking ratified 9 months previous, is just plain bad. it looks untrustworthy and dishonest.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

judiasm isn't much interested in the solar system, anyway, it is largely a rules/law-based system to regulate community norms.
And there was me thinking it was a racist cult dedicated to promoting the interests of itself and its disciples.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+304|2144
yes, anti-semites make a purposeful habit of confusing a 2500-year-old religion with a 100-year-old nationalist political project.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

also countries reneging on deals tends to happen when circumstances change, i.e. after the agreements have had a bit of fucking mutual use and generally justified their original existence. countries reneging on 'withdrawal agreements', to which they had explicitly signed and fucking ratified 9 months previous, is just plain bad. it looks untrustworthy and dishonest.
The Euros have been bending the agreements and fucking Britain for decades, this is what created Brexit.
Everything is fluid at this point.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+692|4235|Toronto

uziq wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/17/alexei-navalny-novichok-bottle-of-water-hotel-room?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1600340875

novichok found on bottle of water in tomsk hotel room.

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said earlier this month that tests carried out in Germany showed “unequivocally” that the nerve agent was used to poison Navalny. Subsequent tests in France and Sweden have returned similar results. The same poison was used in the attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury in 2018.
so, just as the dutch intelligence authorities corroborated the findings of the UK on the salisbury case, now the french and swedish political and scientific establishments are conspiring with the germans ... who, don't forget, according to belarus, are conspiring with the polish ...

wow! all of europe conspiring to poison a (supposedly) minor and insignificant russian figure. all of this to cancel a pipeline which is already 98% complete, with europe's funding and at their behest?

let's watch shahter deny this one!

I think the point in using a known Russian poisoning agent isn't so much to deny it, but to show the world what they can do. The weak hide. Putin's a MAN daring the world to make a move. The denials are just to create confusion and show that Russia gets 'it', but the sucka MC's at the mic for the other countries don't.

My honest understanding of the Russian political world (limited, I'll admit) is that the mind games are by-far-and-away the mark of strong leadership. Controlling information and its perception is the game.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
Larssen
Member
+30|579

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

also countries reneging on deals tends to happen when circumstances change, i.e. after the agreements have had a bit of fucking mutual use and generally justified their original existence. countries reneging on 'withdrawal agreements', to which they had explicitly signed and fucking ratified 9 months previous, is just plain bad. it looks untrustworthy and dishonest.
The Euros have been bending the agreements and fucking Britain for decades, this is what created Brexit.
Everything is fluid at this point.
What a load of horseshit. The UK was one of the most influential and powerful members in the EU. There wasn't a single treaty that didn't have a UK stamp of approval on it, after including whatever national interest it needed to push. They also secured opt outs and special arrangements on various topics.

It's the national politicians and tabloids who then turned around to shift blame for any of the UK's ills on the EU. Let's be clear here: it's the UK that didn't want to play with others and doesn't understand what compromise means.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-09-18 01:37:32)

uziq
Member
+304|2144
i completely agree. if anyone has engaged in ‘bad faith’, it’s the brexiters, johnson’s lot, the ERG, etc. they are promising the electorate a quick and easy deal, ‘get brexit done’, securing re-election based on that, whilst doing absolutely nothing to further a deal. for a large part of bojo’s term the negotiators and staff in brussels have been doing fuck all. the ‘strategy’, such as it is, seems to be to take the EU to a brink and spook them. that wasn’t a good strategy in the past and it’s not working now. the U.K. government has to take responsibility for a very poor job.

considering the absolute stack of ministerial gaffes that have occurred in the same time, from home sec to transport sec to the recent exams meltdown with the education sec, and considering most of this simmering hot pot of mediocrity are still in their jobs, it doesn’t surprise me at all that these fucking cowboys are torpedo’ing their own withdrawal agreement. it is not a noble moment, far from ‘standing up to the EU’. it is craven nonsense.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

It's the national politicians and tabloids who then turned around to shift blame for any of the UK's ills on the EU. Let's be clear here: it's the UK that didn't want to play with others and doesn't understand what compromise means.
Thats the last few months, like I said, the EU has been fucking Britain for decades.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i completely agree. if anyone has engaged in ‘bad faith’, it’s the brexiters, johnson’s lot, the ERG, etc. they are promising the electorate a quick and easy deal, ‘get brexit done’, securing re-election based on that, whilst doing absolutely nothing to further a deal. for a large part of bojo’s term the negotiators and staff in brussels have been doing fuck all. the ‘strategy’, such as it is, seems to be to take the EU to a brink and spook them. that wasn’t a good strategy in the past and it’s not working now. the U.K. government has to take responsibility for a very poor job.

considering the absolute stack of ministerial gaffes that have occurred in the same time, from home sec to transport sec to the recent exams meltdown with the education sec, and considering most of this simmering hot pot of mediocrity are still in their jobs, it doesn’t surprise me at all that these fucking cowboys are torpedo’ing their own withdrawal agreement. it is not a noble moment, far from ‘standing up to the EU’. it is craven nonsense.
There's no doubt Bojo never had any intention of a deal, he has always wanted to crash out with no deal.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+30|579

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

It's the national politicians and tabloids who then turned around to shift blame for any of the UK's ills on the EU. Let's be clear here: it's the UK that didn't want to play with others and doesn't understand what compromise means.
Thats the last few months, like I said, the EU has been fucking Britain for decades.
Give me proof
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4798|eXtreme to the maX
I dunno, letting migrants build camps en route to the UK?

Helping migrants cross the channel to the UK?

Rigging EU regulations to benefit French and German companies?

Enforcing EU rules unevenly?
Epstein didn't kill himself

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