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Larssen
Member
+30|580

uziq wrote:

i've read postmodernism. i have a master's degree in modernism and postmodernism. i think i am qualified to say that most of it is abstruse theory-wank and has no bearing on actual politics today. that's because it doesn't. i have no idea what you were hoping to achieve in your little 'see? HAH! thanks, derrida, for BLM!' talk. you are a very silly little boy.
I explained many times now that their thinking was of great influence to the analytical lenses used in many different social sciences and that I can trace quite a number of arguments back to deconstructionism, writings on power structures, not just in society but in language itself, all of which became very fashionable in no small part thanks to among others the french philosophers derrida and foucault. I did not blame BLM on them, but I connected BLM in a wider context to that work and those analyses.

You're wrong in ridiculing 70s postmodernism as out of vogue and insisting it doesn't matter anymore today, because it patently does.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-07-07 13:28:05)

uziq
Member
+304|2144
about what for god's sake? what are you even getting at? BLM is not a 'postmodernist' movement. how is any of it relevant? this is inane.

you have demonstrated very little knowledge of the actual history of thought and praxis in america. their protest movement is its own thing. it does not take its cues from french theory. only the graduate students among BLM give a shit about derrida. there's just way too much to unpack in his writing before you can boil it down to something salient for BLM. it's so removed and irrelevant. there are just 101 other thinkers and a whole bunch of other politics/philosophy that is more proximate.

look, in general to even characterize conciliatory tactics as 'rortyian pragmatism' and protest politics as 'french theory' is contrived and silly. BLM has very little to do with academic philosophy or literary theory, larssen. why are you even invoking these thinkers and names at all? it's relevant to graduate students, and that's about it. there is a whole other history and lineage of popular politics, protest movements, civil rights leaders, orators, organizers, etc. a 'public intellectual' like chomsky or cornel west is the closest BLM has to an overlap with philosophy.

i find it very strange that you even want to interpret this as a 'clash' between rorty and foucault/derrida. it's so bizarre. rorty does not have a monopoly on pragmatism! why do you have these intellectual attachments? is it because this is all you've ever read?
uziq
Member
+304|2144

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

i've read postmodernism. i have a master's degree in modernism and postmodernism. i think i am qualified to say that most of it is abstruse theory-wank and has no bearing on actual politics today. that's because it doesn't. i have no idea what you were hoping to achieve in your little 'see? HAH! thanks, derrida, for BLM!' talk. you are a very silly little boy.
I explained many times now that their thinking was of great influence to the analytical lenses used in many different social sciences and that I can trace quite a number of arguments back to deconstructionism, writings on power structures, not just in society but in language itself, all of which became very fashionable in no small part thanks to among others the french philosophers derrida and foucault. I did not blame BLM on them, but I connected BLM in a wider context to that work and those analyses.

You're wrong in ridiculing 70s postmodernism as out of vogue and insisting it doesn't matter anymore today, because it patently does.
it matters as much as lacan, freud, marx, jung, kristeva, said, althusser, marcuse, adorno, nietzsche, gramsci, hegel ...

all of these thinkers who critiqued society and wrote philosophy 'have something to say' or 'give an angle'. it doesn't mean they're responsible for BLM! what the fuck! philosophy provides useful interpretative frameworks to 'read' the world; it doesn't create the world! the tenor and ferocity of BLM has not been 'inspired' by french theorists! derrida isn't 'responsible' for shit!

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-07 13:32:10)

Larssen
Member
+30|580

uziq wrote:

about what for god's sake? what are you even getting at? BLM is not a 'postmodernist' movement. how is any of it relevant? this is inane.

you have demonstrated very little knowledge of the actual history of thought and praxis in america. their protest movement is its own thing. it does not take its cues from french theory. only the graduate students among BLM give a shit about derrida. there's just way too much to unpack in his writing before you can boil it down to something salient for BLM. it's so removed and irrelevant. there are just 101 other thinkers and a whole bunch of other politics/philosophy that is more proximate.

look, in general to even characterize conciliatory tactics as 'rortyian pragmatism' and protest politics as 'french theory' is contrived and silly. BLM has very little to do with academic philosophy or literary theory, larssen. why are you even invoking these thinkers and names at all? it's relevant to graduate students, and that's about it. there is a whole other history and lineage of popular politics, protest movements, civil rights leaders, orators, organizers, etc. a 'public intellectual' like chomsky or cornel west is the closest BLM has to an overlap with philosophy.

i find it very strange that you even want to interpret this as a 'clash' between rorty and foucault/derrida. it's so bizarre. rorty does not have a monopoly on pragmatism! why do you have these intellectual attachments? is it because this is all you've ever read?
This may just be the most muted and explanatory post you've made in the last 3 pages. Must've taken a lot of effort to write those 2 paragraphs. I don't simply characterise concilliatory tactics as rortyan pragmatism, but whatever.

At least you're now acknowledging I've actually read the stuff so I guess we can call it a day.
uziq
Member
+304|2144
you haven't read any of this stuff, it's patently obvious. you've read a few sheets and selected passages for a course one time, and you've never touched or thought about it since. you are not familiar with their work. you haven't read their primary texts, let alone secondary texts and commentary and actual research on it. you have not read their stuff and i'm not conceding otherwise, because it's fucking OBVIOUS.

you've been blagging an argument for 3 pages with literally a few seminar's worth of reading and discussion. you don't know anything about foucault's work, about his politics (i.e. the opposite of identity politics). you didn't know who chomsky was, basically, despite the fact he's been the public figurehead of protest and anti-liberal critique in america for almost 50 years. i am 100% sure you have not read and parsed a piece of work by derrida in your entire life. you've picked up the word 'deconstruction' somewhere before (he didn't invent it btw), been told that it's a Bad Thing, and now you see bad naughty derridean deconstruction everywhere.

don't get mad at me and accuse me of being rude because i think you're very silly. you want to get into high-level debates without any of the background reading. it's purely contrived. you can't just talk about the 'tactics of BLM' and whether or not their approach is working; no, it has to be a contest between 'rortyian pragmatism and french postmodernism'. utter drivel.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-07 13:37:46)

Larssen
Member
+30|580
At this point you're just purposefully misrepresenting my point, and I'm not going to reiterate a hundred times over. I feel I've been doing nothing but repeating myself and trying to expand even slightly on what basically was my insinuation all this time (postmodern influence can be traced through time and is showing up in wider society), which you essentially countered by saying a. 'but the USA has its own local context to the style of these movements' - which is fair enough, and b. 'but x y z philosophers can also be termed as influential in current debates' - which isn't really an answer.

I don't know why you choose to say that 'I don know who chomsky was' - when it's quite obvious I've encountered him many times but not in all contexts. Why make that exaggeration? Ok so he has commented on BLM too, cool, but his influence there is hard for you to describe.

So apparently you've done your masters in these subjects, now I'm trying to turn this around in how I engage with people who wish to comment on the intricacies of the EU and crisis management. All I can say is you're quite useless really.

Don't fret uziq, I don't ever get mad on these boards. I just point out your idiosyncracies so that you can check yourself every once in a while.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-07-07 13:50:06)

uziq
Member
+304|2144

Larssen wrote:

I did not blame BLM on them, but I connected BLM in a wider context to that work and those analyses.

You're wrong in ridiculing 70s postmodernism as out of vogue and insisting it doesn't matter anymore today, because it patently does.
and right, except you're missing the part of the 'wider context' that is actually relevant. THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT. and liberal reform.

french theory came out of literal revolutionary marxist struggles. may-68. these people were communists. is BLM a marxist movement? foucault and derrida did not create the current 'identity-politics' and 'ethnic-politics'-based reality. that is liberal politics. they were radically marxist, larssen, as against ethnic and identity ghettoes as you are.

what's more relevant, do you think? the history of civil rights in america and the huge number of liberal critiques made by american philosophers, or radical marxists from france?

So apparently you've done your masters in these subjects, now I'm trying to turn this around in how I engage with people who wish to comment on the intricacies of the EU and crisis management. All I can say is you're quite useless really.
you started the argument you dipshit. you invoke subjects you know nothing about and then retreat whilst grumbling about manners and 'you're a loser', 'lol ur knowledge is useless'. i have parlayed my graduate research directly into a relevant career field. i'm not the one reaching to seem more intellectual than i am on an internet forum. you are very bizarre. my knowledge of postmodernism was perfectly useful, and continues to be so, thank you very much.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-07 13:51:06)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+363|2412

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Foucault was gay. Keep that in mind. Anything he wrote all started from that premise.
And here you two are. Arguing over a gay man.
Larssen
Member
+30|580
I don't feel any retreating here. Your knowledge being useful for you in your personal life is completely beside the point, but I'm happy you somehow managed to find a place that would have you. If you didn't realise it yet the course of this discussion is 100%, totally, on you. The fact that you somehow expect civility and informed discussion while non-stop hurling insults at others is so tonedeaf I might as well diagnose you with autism.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-07-07 13:58:32)

Larssen
Member
+30|580

SuperJail Warden wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Foucault was gay. Keep that in mind. Anything he wrote all started from that premise.
And here you two are. Arguing over a gay man.
I mean, you're not wrong.
uziq
Member
+304|2144

Larssen wrote:

I don't feel any retreating here. Your knowledge being useful for you in your personal life is completely beside the point, but I'm happy you somehow managed to find a place that would have you. If you didn't realise it yet the course of this discussion is 100%, totally, on you. The fact that you somehow expect civility and informed discussion while non-stop hurling insults at others is so tonedeaf I might as well diagnose you with autism.
i can't imagine how you think you've made a single point. 'postmodernism has had an influence' on culture, i mean, yeah, sure, in the vaguest umbrella sense of the term. america had its own native PoMo, you know that right? fredric jameson? jeff koons? none of them were french theory, though. postmodernism was a very broad cultural movement, which has produced all sorts of legacies, as i pointed out with nick land and his festering fascist goons.

french theory has nothing to do with BLM. thank you.

to remind you of your arrogant, stupid first post:

Larssen wrote:

So in the wake of this whole BLM thing it's more apparent than ever that the postmodernist wave in philosophy is leaving quite a legacy. Foucault and derrida have never been more relevant and I think my preference for rortyan pragmatism or marxian analysis is especially pertinent. I guess uziq totally missed the mark here by lambasting all that stuff as jejune and old/irrelevant.


yes, you seem to think 'foucault has never been more relevant' because identity-politics and civil rights are heating up in america. foucault, a person who was fundamentally against identity politics. that's a strange sort of relevance. it's almost like you know nothing about all the other thinkers in the 20th century who contributed to identity/gender/racial politics without being french marxists.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-07 14:09:34)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+363|2412
In all seriousness Jay-Z has probably been more influential for Black Lives Matter than Foucault
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4050|London, England
Would you two just fuck already? The sexual tension can be felt across the Atlantic.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,865|5324|949

SuperJail Warden wrote:

In all seriousness Jay-Z has probably been more influential for Black Lives Matter than Foucault
In all seriousness if you were forced to peg a philosophy to the American Civil Rights movement it would be Christian Theology.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,743|5385
Maybe Mac is onto something...
x
What bloody man is that? NOT MACBETH
uziq
Member
+304|2144
complaining about 'postmodernism's deleterious effects on society is stupid enough when it's jay accusing it of having an influence on students confined to college campuses. to claim that it's fuelling the civil rights movement or any sort of liberal reform programme in america is just illiterate. the last time foucault was ever cited popularly by a movement in the US must have been in the 1970/80s when radical feminists and hippies and proto-punks or whatever were talking about abandoning the family unit, raising children between 8 mothers or whatever-the-fuck. foucault is anti-bourgeois and anti-liberalism. i don't think BLM are quite so radical.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,865|5324|949

I mean, BLM is definitely a rejection of liberalism but it's more a proof than anti-liberal philosophy. Frankly I find it a bit silly to even discuss anti-liberalism vis a vis BLM or the civil rigjts movement in general because it comes across as whitesplaining. Try to ask a black man in America their thoughts on liberalism and see how far that gets you. It's white people trying to solve a problem white people created, i.e. not on their fucking radar.
uziq
Member
+304|2144
cornel west, for e.g., has a philosophy called 'prophetic pragmatism'. i think he's got more on the contemporary african-american experience than foucault.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+363|2412
Cornel West is a clown. I can't stand him. The sky is always falling for him and he needs to stop screaming.
uziq
Member
+304|2144
yeah i don't read him, either, just aware of him.

i don't think BLM is explicitly concerned with any philosophy.

it is funny to ascribe 'black lives matter' though to two french anti-humanists.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-07 16:34:50)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+363|2412
The rioters were basically urban lumpenproletariat. Any of us can talk to someone we really disagree with regarding BLM like Jay or Hollis but none of us would be able to level with the rioters or get a meaningful dialogue about reform going. And it has nothing to do with race either. There is a meme among right wingers about not being able to protest because you have a job. I would suspect that a lot of educated and hard working blacks who can have a meaningful discussion about these issues on here with us have better things to do than risk their lives and hard earned future looting stores and getting tear gassed.

It was hell of a show while it lasted though.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+741|5377|United States of America
https://i.redd.it/3bsmt7wh3m611.jpg
Saw this on Instagram after I spent far too long scrolling through the past few pages.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,865|5324|949

(Reuters) - The institute promoting the “laissez-faire capitalism” of writer Ayn Rand, who in the novels “Atlas Shrugged” and “The Fountainhead” introduced her philosophy of “objectivism” to millions of readers, was approved for a Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loan of up to $1 million, according to data released Monday by the Trump administration.
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN248026
Same as it ever was
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+363|2412
So how about Oklahoma?
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,743|5385
Pretty exciting stuff
x
What bloody man is that? NOT MACBETH

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