Pages: 1 … 554 555 556 557 558 … 695

 

2019-09-24 19:38:59
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

DesertFox- wrote:

Your taxes already are paying for the monumentally inefficient mishmash healthcare system we have now. People share screenshots all the time of bills that are thousands of dollars for simple things. I bet a hospital bandaid costs over >$100, easily. Providers can jack up prices because insurance companies will pay it and shift the costs to their customers. The profit motivation prioritizes a bare minimum of service at whatever people can be persuaded to pay. If the healthcare industry was used to actually... provide healthcare, you have a different metric of success.
Do you understand how it works? Hospitals send inflated bills to the insurance company, the insurance company then negotiates the price down to a fraction of the original value. Most hospitals are non-profit. People without insurance get fucked because the hospital sends them the same bill they would an insurance company, except no one is negotiating that price down because there's no leverage aside from bankruptcy.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-09-24 19:43:46
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Oh noes - mah consumption!

Nah, merely bring corporation tax in line with international levels - or just start taxing offshore earnings - and you'd be good to go, no impact on your selfish self whatsoever.

Or bring the military workfare program under control, I'm confident that by itself would pay for universal healthcare.
It's truly an easy sell to tell everyone that their taxes will double in order to pay for "free" healthcare. It's amazing how often it's been proposed in this country and then when the actual costs are calculated the politician who proposed it abandons it. It can't even pass in Vermont or California.

Right now I pay roughly 12.3k per year for my family's health insurance. Granted, this is only for the half that I pay, my employer pays the other half. The insurance company, a private entity that presumably cuts waste in order to maintain profits, earns roughly 5% profit per annum on my premiums, or $615. Do I trust my government to keep waste levels low enough that it wouldn't overcome the $615 in profits I have to give up? Based on the hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicare fraud committed every year, no. Do I want my hospitals to be owned and operated by the government? Based on the Veterans Administration hospitals and the care that I and other veterans have received from them, hell no.
So many scare stories, where do you get them? "Mah taxes will double" Bullshit.
We've been through this before and shown you that in many 'socialist' countries taxes are lower and better quality healthcare is cheaper, I can't be bothered again.
$25k/year for healthcare? Holy shit. And you're happy to see $1250 of your money go to shareholders?

You're too old to be an idealist. Grow up.
You've yet to grow up, there are 16 year olds more mature than you.
Income tax in the UK and Australia is at 45%. Where is that money going? It sure isn't going to the military. My current income taxes (state and federal combined) are around 22%. My sales tax is 9.875%. UK VAT is 20%. Sure looks like my taxes would at least double.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-09-24 21:01:49
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX
The top marginal rate of tax is 45%, not the average people pay, dur.
GST is 10% here.

On the plus side if people get sick or injured they aren't bankrupted.

And your annual budget deficit is $1Trillion now, you should probably be paying at least an extra 10% of your income to cover that, not dumping it plus compound interest on your kids.

So yeah, congrats on your marginally lower apparent taxes, enjoy paying through the nose for poor quality healthcare.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-09-24 21:12:59)

Fuck Israel
2019-09-25 01:20:40
uziq
Member
+500|3726

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

"Guaranteeing a job with a family-sustaining wage, adequate family and medical leave, paid vacations, and retirement security to all people of the United States."
You have to a real asshole to think this is a bad thing.

My younger sister is a nurse. She will argue to death that fast food workers don't deserve good wages because they don't work a real job. Such ugliness.
How does the government guarantee this?
jay you are LITERALLY describing THE MILITARY which was your way out of blue-collar, bottom-feeding oblivion.

some self-awareness, PLEASE.
2019-09-25 01:28:15
uziq
Member
+500|3726

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

It's truly an easy sell to tell everyone that their taxes will double in order to pay for "free" healthcare. It's amazing how often it's been proposed in this country and then when the actual costs are calculated the politician who proposed it abandons it. It can't even pass in Vermont or California.

Right now I pay roughly 12.3k per year for my family's health insurance. Granted, this is only for the half that I pay, my employer pays the other half. The insurance company, a private entity that presumably cuts waste in order to maintain profits, earns roughly 5% profit per annum on my premiums, or $615. Do I trust my government to keep waste levels low enough that it wouldn't overcome the $615 in profits I have to give up? Based on the hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicare fraud committed every year, no. Do I want my hospitals to be owned and operated by the government? Based on the Veterans Administration hospitals and the care that I and other veterans have received from them, hell no.
So many scare stories, where do you get them? "Mah taxes will double" Bullshit.
We've been through this before and shown you that in many 'socialist' countries taxes are lower and better quality healthcare is cheaper, I can't be bothered again.
$25k/year for healthcare? Holy shit. And you're happy to see $1250 of your money go to shareholders?

You're too old to be an idealist. Grow up.
You've yet to grow up, there are 16 year olds more mature than you.
Income tax in the UK and Australia is at 45%. Where is that money going? It sure isn't going to the military. My current income taxes (state and federal combined) are around 22%. My sales tax is 9.875%. UK VAT is 20%. Sure looks like my taxes would at least double.
income tax for the VAST majority in the UK is 20% and that pays for free healthcare, always, free schools, and much besides. what the fuck are you talking about?

no one ever has to look at a £50,000 per year university tuition fee, or a bill for a serious illness or emergency surgery that will take years of structured credit to pay off.

it isn't going to the military, though, you're right. no country in the world can even hold a candle to the US's military spending. you just have state-planned workfare by a different name. funnel immense amounts of money towards defence contracts, GI bills, unnecessary wars, etc, and claim that every other country is a communistic totalitarian state. seems legit. do you have any idea what america could do with all that defence budget? aren't your highways and public transport a national joke, falling into decrepitude? what's the average student debt in the US? i guess dragging hicks out of poverty by putting them in camo and arming them with high-tech weaponry to kill goats in afghanistan is more important.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-25 01:29:47)

2019-09-25 02:28:43
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX
Yes but think - at a training cost which could have funded a bachelors degree America has the most highly trained goat-killers in the world.

Need a laser-guided bomb dropped on a goat on the other side of the world? Got that shit covered.

Think of all the trickle down benefits of that expertise.
For example:
















































Nope, got nothing.
Fuck Israel
2019-09-25 02:47:22
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

It's truly an easy sell to tell everyone that their taxes will double in order to pay for "free" healthcare. It's amazing how often it's been proposed in this country and then when the actual costs are calculated the politician who proposed it abandons it. It can't even pass in Vermont or California.

Right now I pay roughly 12.3k per year for my family's health insurance. Granted, this is only for the half that I pay, my employer pays the other half. The insurance company, a private entity that presumably cuts waste in order to maintain profits, earns roughly 5% profit per annum on my premiums, or $615. Do I trust my government to keep waste levels low enough that it wouldn't overcome the $615 in profits I have to give up? Based on the hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicare fraud committed every year, no. Do I want my hospitals to be owned and operated by the government? Based on the Veterans Administration hospitals and the care that I and other veterans have received from them, hell no.
So many scare stories, where do you get them? "Mah taxes will double" Bullshit.
We've been through this before and shown you that in many 'socialist' countries taxes are lower and better quality healthcare is cheaper, I can't be bothered again.
$25k/year for healthcare? Holy shit. And you're happy to see $1250 of your money go to shareholders?


You've yet to grow up, there are 16 year olds more mature than you.
Income tax in the UK and Australia is at 45%. Where is that money going? It sure isn't going to the military. My current income taxes (state and federal combined) are around 22%. My sales tax is 9.875%. UK VAT is 20%. Sure looks like my taxes would at least double.
income tax for the VAST majority in the UK is 20% and that pays for free healthcare, always, free schools, and much besides. what the fuck are you talking about?

no one ever has to look at a £50,000 per year university tuition fee, or a bill for a serious illness or emergency surgery that will take years of structured credit to pay off.

it isn't going to the military, though, you're right. no country in the world can even hold a candle to the US's military spending. you just have state-planned workfare by a different name. funnel immense amounts of money towards defence contracts, GI bills, unnecessary wars, etc, and claim that every other country is a communistic totalitarian state. seems legit. do you have any idea what america could do with all that defence budget? aren't your highways and public transport a national joke, falling into decrepitude? what's the average student debt in the US? i guess dragging hicks out of poverty by putting them in camo and arming them with high-tech weaponry to kill goats in afghanistan is more important.
No one pays $50k a year because they have to.

Military is big because of the Cold War. You're welcome.

Roads are ok. Getting better, although far too many highway funds are diverted to propping up trains and bike lanes etc.

Student debt is a choice, not a necessity. It's still possible to go for very cheap, but there will always be the type of person that makes $30k a year while carrying a $10k purse.

We were in Afghanistan because we were attacked by terrorists.

You're mostly a waste of time to talk to, honestly. Go vote Labour and have Corbyn nationalize your trains and mines again. That'll show Thatcher's Shade!
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-09-25 02:56:24
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX
You choose to live in the highest taxing and spending part of America - when are you moving to Utah or Nebraska so you can be free?

I bet half your income is derived from government contracts.
Fuck Israel
2019-09-25 03:09:13
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

You choose to live in the highest taxing and spending part of America - when are you moving to Utah or Nebraska so you can be free?

I bet half your income is derived from government contracts.
0%.

My taxes are high, yes. They would be higher still and for no gain if the list a few pages back was implemented. Pass.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-09-25 03:31:31
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX
Really? You never do any work which is ultimately funded by government spending? I don't believe you.

You could reduce your taxes by moving somewhere which taxed less and spent less - and yet you don't.

Because its good living in a high-tax high-spend environment isn't it? It must be if you choose to stay there.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-09-25 03:32:45)

Fuck Israel
2019-09-25 03:56:36
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3994
Jay used to install HVAC systems into schools. Schools are the biggest driver of local taxes, spending, and debt too. It cost about $10,000 a year to send a child to K through 12. Almost all of that is paid by local taxes unless the place you live in is so poor they get state and federal aid.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2019-09-25 04:23:03
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6959|United States of America

Jay wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

Your taxes already are paying for the monumentally inefficient mishmash healthcare system we have now. People share screenshots all the time of bills that are thousands of dollars for simple things. I bet a hospital bandaid costs over >$100, easily. Providers can jack up prices because insurance companies will pay it and shift the costs to their customers. The profit motivation prioritizes a bare minimum of service at whatever people can be persuaded to pay. If the healthcare industry was used to actually... provide healthcare, you have a different metric of success.
Do you understand how it works? Hospitals send inflated bills to the insurance company, the insurance company then negotiates the price down to a fraction of the original value. Most hospitals are non-profit. People without insurance get fucked because the hospital sends them the same bill they would an insurance company, except no one is negotiating that price down because there's no leverage aside from bankruptcy.
People with insurance are getting fucked, too, because you're still paying more than what the shit costs.
2019-09-25 05:48:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Really? You never do any work which is ultimately funded by government spending? I don't believe you.

You could reduce your taxes by moving somewhere which taxed less and spent less - and yet you don't.

Because its good living in a high-tax high-spend environment isn't it? It must be if you choose to stay there.
No, my clients are private.

I stay here because my family and friends are here. No other reason.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-09-25 06:02:49
uziq
Member
+500|3726

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

Income tax in the UK and Australia is at 45%. Where is that money going? It sure isn't going to the military. My current income taxes (state and federal combined) are around 22%. My sales tax is 9.875%. UK VAT is 20%. Sure looks like my taxes would at least double.
income tax for the VAST majority in the UK is 20% and that pays for free healthcare, always, free schools, and much besides. what the fuck are you talking about?

no one ever has to look at a £50,000 per year university tuition fee, or a bill for a serious illness or emergency surgery that will take years of structured credit to pay off.

it isn't going to the military, though, you're right. no country in the world can even hold a candle to the US's military spending. you just have state-planned workfare by a different name. funnel immense amounts of money towards defence contracts, GI bills, unnecessary wars, etc, and claim that every other country is a communistic totalitarian state. seems legit. do you have any idea what america could do with all that defence budget? aren't your highways and public transport a national joke, falling into decrepitude? what's the average student debt in the US? i guess dragging hicks out of poverty by putting them in camo and arming them with high-tech weaponry to kill goats in afghanistan is more important.
No one pays $50k a year because they have to.

Military is big because of the Cold War. You're welcome.

Roads are ok. Getting better, although far too many highway funds are diverted to propping up trains and bike lanes etc.

Student debt is a choice, not a necessity. It's still possible to go for very cheap, but there will always be the type of person that makes $30k a year while carrying a $10k purse.

We were in Afghanistan because we were attacked by terrorists.

You're mostly a waste of time to talk to, honestly. Go vote Labour and have Corbyn nationalize your trains and mines again. That'll show Thatcher's Shade!
never voted for corbyn and have always maintained – which is the exception for my age bracket/demographic – that he is unelectable and a terrible leader.

but a lot of people support his policies, a lot. when you see the state of private provision for railways, etc, and what 'the wisdom of the market' has done for a taxpayer-funded national train network, then the arguments against it quickly stack up. nationalised transport in europe works extremely well, is cheap, and generally a joy to use. not sure why you're holding that up as some sign of political idiocy.

you keep arguing in this thread that nationalised healthcare, transport, education etc. is a total disaster -- despite the fact that all of these things are working very well in many countries. a little baffling, to be honest. nobody here is envious of the american private solution.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-25 06:15:23)

2019-09-25 06:05:04
uziq
Member
+500|3726

DesertFox- wrote:

Jay wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

Your taxes already are paying for the monumentally inefficient mishmash healthcare system we have now. People share screenshots all the time of bills that are thousands of dollars for simple things. I bet a hospital bandaid costs over >$100, easily. Providers can jack up prices because insurance companies will pay it and shift the costs to their customers. The profit motivation prioritizes a bare minimum of service at whatever people can be persuaded to pay. If the healthcare industry was used to actually... provide healthcare, you have a different metric of success.
Do you understand how it works? Hospitals send inflated bills to the insurance company, the insurance company then negotiates the price down to a fraction of the original value. Most hospitals are non-profit. People without insurance get fucked because the hospital sends them the same bill they would an insurance company, except no one is negotiating that price down because there's no leverage aside from bankruptcy.
People with insurance are getting fucked, too, because you're still paying more than what the shit costs.
haven't politicians in the US just started to pass a bill about the cost of medication in the states? because the companies have literally been charging 1000% the price for years and years -- just because they can? seems legit. i pay about £12 for any medication, for any purpose (would be totally free if i was in scotland or wales).
2019-09-25 06:19:15
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3994
They passed a law forcing drug companies to display their prices on drug commercials. I believe the courts blocked it from going into effect because nit violated the freedom of speech of the drug companies.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2019-09-25 07:38:03
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay used to install HVAC systems into schools. Schools are the biggest driver of local taxes, spending, and debt too. It cost about $10,000 a year to send a child to K through 12. Almost all of that is paid by local taxes unless the place you live in is so poor they get state and federal aid.
$22,000 per year is spent on each student in NYC. I used to design the HVAC systems. Can't pick your projects as a design engineer, but it did give me the warm and fuzzies to improve kids lives in even a marginal way.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-09-25 17:19:27
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

No, my clients are private.
And who pays them?

I stay here because my family and friends are here. No other reason.
John Galt wouldn't have let trivia like that stand in the way of freedom.

And if a high tax high spend economy is so awful why are your family and friends still there?
Surely you're all itching to pool your resources and build a libertarian nirvana outpost in Texas or somewhere?
Fuck Israel
2019-09-25 17:35:31
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

No, my clients are private.
And who pays them?

I stay here because my family and friends are here. No other reason.
John Galt wouldn't have let trivia like that stand in the way of freedom.

And if a high tax high spend economy is so awful why are your family and friends still there?
Surely you're all itching to pool your resources and build a libertarian nirvana outpost in Texas or somewhere?
Their tenants?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-09-25 19:09:19
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX
And who are the tenants?
Fuck Israel
2019-09-26 13:01:47
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3994
https://i.redd.it/dj8yezjexwc11.jpg
That is bizarre. What went wrong in western Europe?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2019-09-28 02:42:43
Larssen
Member
+99|2162
I'm beginning to notice that climate activism in the west seems to increasingly turn to radicalism. Not just in the rhetoric used - with Greta as some sort of international rallying point for angry activists - but also in the proposed solutions. There's more cynicism about the free market and there's a strand in the movement arguing climate activism should now focus on ending capitalism (as shown in the debate linked earlier). This ideological shift may well destroy the original purpose of the activist agenda and permanently banish their cause to the (far) left end of the political spectrum, provoking right wing reactionaries.

There's also some manipulation of history, blaming the inaction on climate change solely on big oil in the 70s and that if only we had listened to the scientists many decades ago we could've done more to prepare. While it's true the oil & gas industry deliberately de-emphasised the issue, the science was much less clear, the proposed solutions ridiculous. I believe an article in the economist last week outlined that in the 60s/early 70s and up until the late 20th century there was enormous concern that the oceans would absorb all greenhouse gases (it didn't/doesn't). An advisory committee to the white house outlined the plan to throw trillions of ping pong balls into the ocean to increase the world's surface reflectivity against solar rays and cool the planet. Had someone acted on that stupid idea we'd have spent billions solving a problem we didn't understand, filling (& killing) the oceans with plastics in the process.

Not using that to cast doubt on climate science, as we've come along much farther since and today's picture is far clearer. But it remains to be stated that problem analysis & proposed solutions, especially on a global scale, are imperfect and could use some nuance & careful consideration. Not in the activist's mind. Might as well equate climate science to a bible in their case, often gravitating to the notion that the most extreme predictions (end of life on earth & all biodiversity as we know it basically) are facts. Included are standard far-left talking points of anger against the corporate world and the political elite, who of course misled and manipulated the people. Que the "we'll never forgive you" and "you're never doing enough" rhetoric plus a lawsuit against the few nations who allow for that to be possible.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-09-28 02:45:11)

2019-09-28 05:38:54
uziq
Member
+500|3726
there’s enough money to be made in renewables and new technologies for ‘the green dollar’ to ever be monopolised by the far left. you sound hysterical. lots of capitalists who think the answer to the current predicament is more tech, more capitalism...

but yes it doesn’t really seem so radical or mad to conclude that consumerism has had its day in the sun and people should start structuring their lives around things other than accumulation and buying new shit all the time. the culture has to change (and doctrinaire marxians naturally believe that cultural superstructure follows economic base ...). but that’s not necessarily the future of climate change.

i don’t think greta’s ‘we will never forgive you’ is leftist indignation. it’s a generation accusing the current elders of rank hypocrisy and inaction. books might be written about a future without work and with climate change, and lots of them might look to the left for a readymade framework of answers, but i don’t see extinction rebellion as a mouthpiece of leftism?

one would think that scientists do not publish politically and would not want their work to be interpreted as such, either.

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-28 05:50:29)

2019-09-28 06:06:52
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX
The radical left has latched onto climate change as a means of destroying industrial capitalism and bringing us back to the 'golden times' of rustic farmitude.

This has blunted the message and allowed the radical right to dismiss climate change as a Marxist agenda, although they were going to ignore it anyway as change would impact on business. Now they have a convenient excuse.
It doesn't help that hypocrites and guzzlers like Al Gore latched onto it too.

Now its just another part of the Red vs Blue infantilism.

Meanwhile climate change is a catastrophic issue and there's zero chance of the free market delivering a planet-scale solution.
I'm fairly sure there's going to be an unrecoverable tipping point - loss of the ice-caps, glaciers and their reflectivity, rotting of the permafrost, ocean methane hydrate etc which will give us a large temperature and ocean rise in too short a timescale to be manageable. Billions will be displaced or starve to death as weather systems will be disrupted and crop planning become impossible.

Oh and ping-pong balls are traditionally made of cellulose, a natural material, although apparently some are now made of plastic.
Fuck Israel
2019-09-28 09:16:42
uziq
Member
+500|3726
it’s funny to me that everyone talks about how climate change is some rabid radical Left idea and meanwhile the trump administration is literally gutting and de-funding anything to do with climate science or natural preservation. not to mention the extreme proximity that exists and traditionally has existed between big business oil corps, koch brothers, etc, and official state apparatuses. but i guess it’s the spooky shadowy Left who are politicising this issue to their own ideological ends.

like compare the single contribution, impact and influence of the koch guy who died recently after his lifetime of political activity, measure its impact on the planet ... but, shit guys, these dangerous communists are really fucking us with their sinister green agendas!!!

it’s almost like the right wing haven’t been plenty motivated to discredit climate change, anyway, what with their immense vested interests. no, it’s the left who are doing so much to harm the reputation of green policies! not like the right haven’t been funding thinktanks and putting out climate change denialism for years and years ... let’s blame the hippies. they’ve pushed us to this! they’re taking it too far!

obviously it's annoying to be lectured by sanctimonious celebrities. and holy sects of green acolytes who want us all to wear hemp and worship gaia can raise an eyebrow or two. but it's not like green agendas cannot be integrated with centrist politics. labour in the UK just committed to net zero carbon emissions by 2030. of course, this involves nationalising the energy sector, or large parts of it, to achieve this aim -- as you said, we need dirigisme, not free-market hidden hands. but it's a long way from growing dreadlocks and crying over the rainforest.

bongggg

Last edited by uziq (2019-09-28 09:35:56)

 

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