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SuperJail Warden
Member
+340|2331
It is highly likely Wakanda was involved in the slave trade. I don't know why that wasn't brought up on Roots.
Larssen
Member
+23|499
In all seriousness suppose any of you ever watch the movie Lawrence of Arabia. Most know the name and few have a rough idea of what it's about, but not that many have actually taken the time to sit down and see it. If you've never seen it I'm sure the film will give you some new insight into, maybe even empathy for arab culture and how the Middle East became what it is today. Maybe you'll decide to pick up seven pillars of wisdom, though I'd have to caution that it's dense and difficult to get through. Anyway, thousands have seen it before you and the movie and book have been an inspiration for generations of people interested in Arab history, cultures and conflicts.

Yet both the film and the book are mired in historical inaccuracies and even fiction, although the story is also true. Do these issues detract from people's newfound understanding & interest in its subject matter? No. In fact, it probably helped many discover something new or adjust their existing preconceived notions. I'm certain that even you two have watched a film which made you reach for a book or article or made you think.

The point is that a work of art about historical events doesn't immediately lose all value because of some fictitious or innacurate scenes. If it's popular, invariably it also increases public interest in the real history behind it, which can only be seen as a good thing. It's been true for many series and movies - some much more respectful of the history than others. Usually, the farther back in time we go the worse the deviation from historical fact in film becomes. As a history buff myself I've been annoyed with it a number of times, though we shouldn't forget that works of art usually have other intentions than simply being documentaries about the past.

In comparison to many of these works I have to restate that chernobyl does a good job, which isn't acknowledged at all by most of the people throwing a fit over 'historical accuracy'. It's also unclear to me what you do expect from a historical dramatisation instead, considering that it is fictitious by definition. Beyond that, as a bonus, the series also caused a huge surge of interest in the event. While the Chernobyl disaster was slowly fading into a distant past, more people than ever before are now reading about it, thinking about the subject and visiting the area.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX
Probably best to not draw deep conclusions from works of fiction.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+23|499
What point is there to art & fiction if it's not supposed to make us think Dilbert? And how do you deal with works that mix fiction & fact to varying degrees?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX
I separate fact from fiction and go from there.

Fiction is for philosophical questions.

Fact is for making concrete plans.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-06-22 02:42:34)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+275|2064
heaven forbid you guys discover kapuscinski or tokarczuk or this new-fangled thing called creative non-fiction that hasn’t been all the rage for, oh i don’t know, the last 15 years. a real mind-melter! wHeRE’s tHe boUnDaRieS?

lots of fiction from the c 20th onwards has called into question the nature and veracity of memory, individual and collective (you could say it coincided with a new type of science that had an increasingly shaky grip on so-called ‘objective’ reality, positivistic approaches, etc). that’s precisely why the alexievich method is so good. she just collects oral and witness testimonies and let’s them be, only arranged and curated in a certain tableaux-like way.

Last edited by uziq (2019-06-22 03:09:45)

Larssen
Member
+23|499
Dilbert's thought process is composed of binary code and you want to get into truth & perception? We're not nearly there yet.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I separate fact from fiction and go from there.

Fiction is for philosophical questions.

Fact is for making concrete plans
So you're meaning to tell me fiction can help your understanding of the world around you Dilbert? Sounds pretty deep to me.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX
Nations don't base their middle-east policy on Lawrence of Arabia or other fictionalised works.
Is this news to you?

Except Israel, their Waco-like outpost is based on fairy stories and superstition.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+23|499
https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/r … oin-wisdom

Read the first paragraph. The writer is a little too enthusiastic but it's true the book became recommended (not required) reading at some point in the early 2000s. There's inaccuracies but the history is real and Lawrence & the Arabs did many of the things he wrote about.

Dealing with people isn't a math equation Dilbert. If you're telling me art is for philosophical questions, maybe you can learn a thing or two by appreciating or thinking about its purpose a little more.
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|5321|England. Stoke

Dilbert_X wrote:

Nations don't base their middle-east policy on Lawrence of Arabia or other fictionalised works.
Is this news to you?

Except Israel, their Waco-like outpost is based on fairy stories and superstition.
That Iraq WMD dossier would like a word...
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,002|3970|London, England
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/reading-lawrence-in-afghanistan-the-seven-pillars-of-counter-coin-wisdom

Read the first paragraph. The writer is a little too enthusiastic but it's true the book became recommended (not required) reading at some point in the early 2000s. There's inaccuracies but the history is real and Lawrence & the Arabs did many of the things he wrote about.

Dealing with people isn't a math equation Dilbert. If you're telling me art is for philosophical questions, maybe you can learn a thing or two by appreciating or thinking about its purpose a little more.
Are we talking about the book or the film now?
Obviously a book written by a first hand witness would be useful, a fictionalised account created 50 years later somewhat less.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+23|499
A number of key events in the book have also been contested as fiction by historians at various points in time. I figured you referred to the story itself, not specifically the film. Which is also a bit strange considering I don't think anyone views a film in complete isolation of its source material.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-06-23 08:11:53)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

A number of key events in the book have also been contested as fiction by historians at various points in time. I figured you referred to the story itself, not specifically the film. Which is also a bit strange considering I don't think anyone views a film in complete isolation of its source material.
So, like I said before:
separate fact from fiction and go from there
I'm not sure what is controversial about this.
Epstein didn't kill himself
SuperJail Warden
Member
+340|2331
Somoene posted this picture on reddit.
https://i.redd.it/zb7xjmmkoi631.png
All of the comments were Real World Fact about cooling towers. "Why did they use a cooling tower to represent nuclear power?" "Do they know cooling towers don't produce nuclear power?" "You have to be pretty dumb to see a cooling tower and assume nuclear power."

Reminded me of this thread. It sucks knowing that this is now going to be a thing forever like how Breaking Bad made everyone experts on meth and drug trafficking.
uziq
Member
+275|2064
how is ISIS anything like iran, more importantly?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX
How was Iraq anything like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan?

Trump needs to get re-elected.

Israel needs another rival taken out.

Whats not to like about a war with Iran?
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+275|2064
well i didn't posit the first thing, did i? not sure many educated people did at the time, either. pointing at saddam after 9/11 was as mystifying then as now.

but i'm not sure what angle that graphic is taking. how is ISIS anything like iran?!?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,002|3970|London, England

uziq wrote:

well i didn't posit the first thing, did i? not sure many educated people did at the time, either. pointing at saddam after 9/11 was as mystifying then as now.

but i'm not sure what angle that graphic is taking. how is ISIS anything like iran?!?
Because ISIS was a bunch of Sunni supremacists and Iran is Shi'a supremacist, duh. Totally the same and they totally get along. All muslims are the same.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+275|2064
not to mention the fact that ISIS were a tiny extremist sect imposed on people by terror and force and iran had, you know, a fucking gigantic popular revolution.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX
This is all great but Trump is going to bomb them anyway.

Should give a nice uplift to his Presidential approval ratings, so its clearly justified.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,692|4718|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Because ISIS was a bunch of Sunni supremacists and Iran is Shi'a supremacist, duh. Totally the same and they totally get along. All muslims are the same.
And they're in conflict with jewish supremacists and we know who has to win that one.
Epstein didn't kill himself
SuperJail Warden
Member
+340|2331

uziq wrote:

well i didn't posit the first thing, did i? not sure many educated people did at the time, either. pointing at saddam after 9/11 was as mystifying then as now.

but i'm not sure what angle that graphic is taking. how is ISIS anything like iran?!?
The image is from Benjamin netanyahu's Twitter account.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,002|3970|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Because ISIS was a bunch of Sunni supremacists and Iran is Shi'a supremacist, duh. Totally the same and they totally get along. All muslims are the same.
And they're in conflict with jewish supremacists and we know who has to win that one.
Rather the Jews, honestly. They just want to be left alone.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,856|5244|949

yes of course, just want to be left alone. I would definitely come to that conclusion based on their actions in the region.  All those civilians targeted and killed in the occupied territories are threatening the very existence of Israel. The whole push to expand the settlements in occupied territories is a clear case of the Israeli governments push to just be left alone.

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