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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3553|London, England
The more that you depend on sensors and software the more failure points that are created. Automation systems require continual maintenance and the repairs tend to be expensive. Give me a dumb hydraulic or pneumatic system anyday.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
There was an article somewhere that went over the development of this version of the 737 and the issues that came with it. Basically they retrofitted modern avionics and engines onto an old frame design. And now they are crashing themselves as if they know the Frankenstein monsters that they are.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

The more that you depend on sensors and software the more failure points that are created. Automation systems require continual maintenance and the repairs tend to be expensive. Give me a dumb hydraulic or pneumatic system anyday.
What if I told you that pilots rely on the exact same sensors that automation systems do, and make the exact same mistakes an automation system does when the sensors give faulty readings?

Faulty and part-worn hydraulic and pneumatic systems are hard to trouble-shoot and have caused plenty of deaths.

Pilot error is still the leading cause of air crashes, I'd rather have an automation system doing most of the work controlling a dumb hydraulic system.

Its the case now that modern passenger aircraft are sufficiently fragile and high performance that their operating envelope is very small and close to the point that they're unflyable without an automation system.
Without an automation system the wrong control inputs could disintegrate a plane in midair.
If something basic like an airspeed indicator fails then neither a pilot nor an automation system has any chance of flying them, they'll either crash or disintegrate midair.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-03-13 02:17:17)

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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

what's the engineers' take on the boeing PR disaster with their latest jet? donald trump thinks planes are 'too complicated to fly' now, lol.
Two new planes have crashed in very similar circumstances, its prudent to ground them until the cause is determined.

Of course the FAA will sit on its hands and protect Boeing, as they've done many times before, when if it were Airbus aircraft crashing they'd be screaming from the rooftops.

I bet Trump struggles with retractable biros.
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uziq
Member
+153|1647
can't wait for amish hipsters to bring back the horse and buggy.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3553|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

The more that you depend on sensors and software the more failure points that are created. Automation systems require continual maintenance and the repairs tend to be expensive. Give me a dumb hydraulic or pneumatic system anyday.
What if I told you that pilots rely on the exact same sensors that automation systems do, and make the exact same mistakes an automation system does when the sensors give faulty readings?

Faulty and part-worn hydraulic and pneumatic systems are hard to trouble-shoot and have caused plenty of deaths.

Pilot error is still the leading cause of air crashes, I'd rather have an automation system doing most of the work controlling a dumb hydraulic system.

Its the case now that modern passenger aircraft are sufficiently fragile and high performance that their operating envelope is very small and close to the point that they're unflyable without an automation system.
Without an automation system the wrong control inputs could disintegrate a plane in midair.
If something basic like an airspeed indicator fails then neither a pilot nor an automation system has any chance of flying them, they'll either crash or disintegrate midair.
I admittedly don't know much about airplanes. It's not my specialty. When I complain about sensors and automation my experience stems from dealing with faulty building automation systems. They're expensive to install, never maintained, and the people put in charge of running the systems never understand them enough to actually take advantage of them.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+153|1647
i mean, aeronautical engineering and fans that blow cold air into a building, they're basically the same thing.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
I install a wall air conditioner every summer. I am pretty much a HVAC engineer. It's not hard. Bunch of overpaid nerds.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX
I have some experience working on defence electronic systems, and I read a lot having been interested in aviation since shortly after birth.

What I do know is that if defence electronics and systems experts routinely make really dumb decisions then you can bet commercial avionics experts also make really dumb decisions. Often its experts stepping outside their area of expertise into an area they think must be easier than theirs. Physics, aerodynamics etc should be left to experts, not software engineers who think their job is the hardest so they can wing everything else. Chernobyl was caused by an electrical engineer thinking that nuclear reactor physics was simple stuff for example.

The two new variables are automation systems making mistakes, due to unsuitable code, faulty sensor readings or hardware failure, and human operators misunderstanding what the automation system is doing.
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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,745|4967|USA

I was listening to a program on the radio the other day on this. Apparently, and don't take me for my word on it, this system was a newly upgraded automation and pilots generally didn't receive any training with it. On one of the crashed planes (I didn't catch which), the pilots had even turned the system back on after disabling it. Also heard that the FAA would have pretty much acted on the new data contrary to previous statements, without the president's intervention. So that was probably redundant.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX
There are multiple systems working with and against each other, multiple systems triggering warnings, pilots don't get the training and updates so when things go wrong they get overloaded.

Glider pilots, apart from the one who got depressed and smacked an airliner into a mountain, usually make the best commercial pilots.
But then companies like Air France buy into the bullshit and conclude pilots don't even need to know how to fly - just manage the various systems and let the plane fly itself.
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SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
Another failed Brexit vote. Reminds me of the Republican Obamacare votes. Repeated failure by the conservative party and a stubborn refusal to I don't know change positions.
uziq
Member
+153|1647
there aren’t any other positions available. the conservative party has always been hopelessly divided on europe. no other mainstream party in europe contains such a catholic and wide range of opinions. in france half the brexit fanatics would be in the front nationale.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+707|4880|United States of America
It is a very interesting song and dance to watch a country's leadership ensure the nation is crippled one way or another.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

there aren’t any other positions available. the conservative party has always been hopelessly divided on europe. no other mainstream party in europe contains such a catholic and wide range of opinions. in france half the brexit fanatics would be in the front nationale.
Its a relatively small anti-europe faction though isn't it?
Cameron should have faced them down.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX

DesertFox- wrote:

It is a very interesting song and dance to watch a country's leadership ensure the nation is crippled one way or another.
Almost as funny as watching Trump cripple America.
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DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+707|4880|United States of America

Dilbert_X wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

It is a very interesting song and dance to watch a country's leadership ensure the nation is crippled one way or another.
Almost as funny as watching Trump cripple America.
We knew that going in, though. Brexit wasn't supposed to be such a nightmare.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX
At best Brexit was going to achieve nothing, a soft Brexit, ongoing customs union and Britain paying a similar or larger fee.
At worst it was going to be a colossal disaster.

All thats happened is three years of confusion and we still don't know the final outcome.
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uziq
Member
+153|1647

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

there aren’t any other positions available. the conservative party has always been hopelessly divided on europe. no other mainstream party in europe contains such a catholic and wide range of opinions. in france half the brexit fanatics would be in the front nationale.
Its a relatively small anti-europe faction though isn't it?
Cameron should have faced them down.
evidently not as absolutely no one can reach a majority vote necessary ... it’s not just those who are ultra-brexiteers but even may’s northern irish fairweather friends who for different reasons are utterly opposed to her deal.
uziq
Member
+153|1647

DesertFox- wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

It is a very interesting song and dance to watch a country's leadership ensure the nation is crippled one way or another.
Almost as funny as watching Trump cripple America.
We knew that going in, though. Brexit wasn't supposed to be such a nightmare.
both were considered as ludicrously simple solutions to rather intractable issues.
tazz.
oz.
+1,310|4370|Sydney | ♥

The speaker in the UK House is as fantastic as his ties. It's truly enjoyable to watch.

everything i write is a ramble and should not be taken seriously.... seriously.
uziq
Member
+153|1647
i think bercow is a bit of a wazzock but he has his moments. he plays it up a bit at times and isn't as self-effacing as some previous speakers.

UK parliament in general is very bawdy and theatrical -- a definite extension of the public schools and gentlemen's clubs, the world in which no doubt most MPs revolve. lots of heckling and jeering, could as well be the 18th century.

the worst culprit by far in the whole protracted brexit process is the attorney-general. truly a self-fancying thesp in the off-off-broadway vein. the man routinely embarrasses himself. possibly the only person on the planet who could turn an event as tumultuous and generation-defining as brexit and make it seem melodramatic and over-egged.



crace for the guardian has been an absolute belter of a correspondent throughout it all. i think it is some of the best political satire i have seen in some time. he's becoming a regular p.j. o'rourke.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 … -spotlight

Last edited by uziq (2019-03-30 08:56:57)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX
Seems like no-one has a clue, and the conservatives won't vote for anything.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47781009
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Larssen
Post limited. Contact Admin to Be Promoted.
+0|83

DesertFox- wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

It is a very interesting song and dance to watch a country's leadership ensure the nation is crippled one way or another.
Almost as funny as watching Trump cripple America.
We knew that going in, though. Brexit wasn't supposed to be such a nightmare.
Brexit was destined to be a complete nightmare and everyone even vaguely aware of the EU's political significance & institutional responsibilities knew. Cameron knew, he resigned. He completely failed to communicate the severity and wide ranging implications of the issue to the public allowing Brexiteers to control and oversimplify the debate. Not just him though, successive generations of UK politicians failed to take ownership of decisions made in the European Council and instead rode the wave of anti-EU populism for short term electoral gain. By the time the referendum was announced the damage had already been done.

uziq wrote:

there aren’t any other positions available. the conservative party has always been hopelessly divided on europe. no other mainstream party in europe contains such a catholic and wide range of opinions. in france half the brexit fanatics would be in the front nationale.
The problem as I see it is that May ignored parliament up until the very last moment. This entire process/crisis should've happened at the start of her tenure as PM, prior to negotiations with Brussels. She should've secured something of a mandate from the House on what details the deal should include and involve them more regularly in that process. It strikes me as profoundly stupid that she went and conjured her own red lines and created a deal with the EU only to consult MPs after it was already made, treating the house like an inconvenient formality to the approval of her vision on Brexit. To make matters worse she has tried to manipulate/pressure them into accepting her deal by endlessly delaying votes on the matter and by tabling the same motion over and over without seriously considering alternatives (instead openly stating she doesn't have to respect the result of the consultative process). Now they're seriously deliberating tabling "meaningful" vote 4 on a deal that's been struck down 3 times already.

She's absolutely totally incompetent in her role, missing all key diplomatic qualities required of a PM that has to rely on a coalition for a majority. Rather it seems she's more of the 'bridge burning' type than the 'bridge building' one. Relations among the different factions in the House have only soured during her time in government. Doesn't help that Corbyn seems to be the most ineffective opposition leader imaginable on this subject.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX
OK this is out of control now.
The so-called “gay panic” defence to a murder charge will be scrapped but domestic violence victims who kill their abuser would still be able to argue for lesser charges under legislation set for Parliament.

Attorney-General Vickie Chapman will draft laws to abolish a defence that enables accused murderers to argue for a downgrade to a manslaughter charge if they were “provoked” to kill.

South Australia is the only state where an alleged killer can still use the “gay panic” defence to argue they were provoked to kill by a homosexual advance.

Ms Chapman said that scenario was “outdated” and would be scrapped but conceded that abolishing the general defence of provocation “has far broader consequences than just removing this outdated and frankly offensive aspect”.

For example, it would also affect victims of domestic violence who kill an abuser in self-defence, she said.

“This is why we have sought to take a considered approach that removes those outdated, discriminatory elements while retaining those elements that are in line with community expectations,” she said.

Victims advocates warn the defence has also been used by those who allegedly killed a spouse they believed had cheated.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/law … 6900bdf1e2

What kind of democracy is this? One group of people can claim provocation as a defence, no-one else can?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-04-09 02:38:52)

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