Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6317|...

Spark wrote:

Isn't that sort of the point?
If nationalism, short term gains and a complete disregard of the common good are your thing, yeah.

Look, everyone and their mum knew that the euro would run into a lot of trouble if political and fiscal union wouldn't be pushed through. I don't see why such control would be 'unacceptable'. people ought to have figured out long ago, before introducing the euro in their own respective countries, that political and fiscal union follow monetary union. It's not like the details of a country's budget will be decided upon in Brussels if they follow through with that though. The only task it (should) have is to enforce budget deficits and monitor/regulate debt&growth levels and respond accordingly, well in advance. That 'well in advance' bit and the 'monitoring' bit were exactly what's lacking.
inane little opines
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7034

Shahter wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Jay wrote:

But you don't have business friendliness. You have an environment where it is obscenely costly to hire anyone. High minimum wage laws, expensive taxes to cover health care, job for life laws like France has etc. Socialism causes economic stagnation, there's just no getting around it.

Socialism and the regulations that go with them are the kind of economy you adopt when you simply want to maintain your position economically. It's an ultra-conservative risk-averse economic ideology that is incompatible with growth. If you want proof, look at the people that advocate socialism. They're generally fearful, ignorant, and pessimistic.
Your corporate income tax is higher than ours. And I'd like to quote wiki here;

There is no capital gains tax in the Netherlands.
Socialism has many different forms. It can be very unfriendly to your economy. The movement is mostly concerned with morals and ethics though so rather than shitting on corporations, they usually target 'the rich'.
this^. socialism is not simply "kind of economy" one "adopts". socialism is very complex construction, focusing more or the development of the society (hence, the name) than economy. dismissing socialism as "ineffective economic model" only shows that our friend jay there knows nothing about it.
Japan was a "perfect" candidate for socialism due to their social structure and culture, honor, hard work, loyalty etc. Had lovely life employment programs, companies all worked/colluded together, government guided their industry and what happened? their whole economy is in shambles and has never really recovered.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7093|Moscow, Russia

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Jay wrote:

But you don't have business friendliness. You have an environment where it is obscenely costly to hire anyone. High minimum wage laws, expensive taxes to cover health care, job for life laws like France has etc. Socialism causes economic stagnation, there's just no getting around it.

Socialism and the regulations that go with them are the kind of economy you adopt when you simply want to maintain your position economically. It's an ultra-conservative risk-averse economic ideology that is incompatible with growth. If you want proof, look at the people that advocate socialism. They're generally fearful, ignorant, and pessimistic.
Your corporate income tax is higher than ours. And I'd like to quote wiki here;


Socialism has many different forms. It can be very unfriendly to your economy. The movement is mostly concerned with morals and ethics though so rather than shitting on corporations, they usually target 'the rich'.
this^. socialism is not simply "kind of economy" one "adopts". socialism is very complex construction, focusing more or the development of the society (hence, the name) than economy. dismissing socialism as "ineffective economic model" only shows that our friend jay there knows nothing about it.
Japan was a "perfect" candidate for socialism due to their social structure and culture, honor, hard work, loyalty etc. Had lovely life employment programs, companies all worked/colluded together, government guided their industry and what happened? their whole economy is in shambles and has never really recovered.
and the likes of you and galt immediately jump to conclusion that it was all socialism's fault. right.

/yawn
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6317|...
You people across the atlantic really need to figure that "socialism" isn't a single, comprehensive ideology like libertarianism etc. There are MANY different schools of thought within it and there are vast differences between each country that you perceive as being 'socialist'.

I know that you feel it's impossibru for a country to grow or do anything and will be doomed to stagnate, crash and burn if it so much as subsidises healthcare coverage, but that doesn't really pertain to reality. (I'm not a socialist, although I guess by US standards I would be).

Last edited by Shocking (2012-08-15 02:59:19)

inane little opines
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6992|Canberra, AUS

Shocking wrote:

Spark wrote:

Isn't that sort of the point?
If nationalism, short term gains and a complete disregard of the common good are your thing, yeah.

Look, everyone and their mum knew that the euro would run into a lot of trouble if political and fiscal union wouldn't be pushed through. I don't see why such control would be 'unacceptable'. people ought to have figured out long ago, before introducing the euro in their own respective countries, that political and fiscal union follow monetary union. It's not like the details of a country's budget will be decided upon in Brussels if they follow through with that though. The only task it (should) have is to enforce budget deficits and monitor/regulate debt&growth levels and respond accordingly, well in advance. That 'well in advance' bit and the 'monitoring' bit were exactly what's lacking.
Don't ask me. Ask the people of Greece what they think about the bailout package. Or the Netherlands in a few months time.

I'm using 'unacceptable' in its most basic form here - ie. people won't accept it. You can't make them.

Last edited by Spark (2012-08-15 03:16:40)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7034

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:


this^. socialism is not simply "kind of economy" one "adopts". socialism is very complex construction, focusing more or the development of the society (hence, the name) than economy. dismissing socialism as "ineffective economic model" only shows that our friend jay there knows nothing about it.
Japan was a "perfect" candidate for socialism due to their social structure and culture, honor, hard work, loyalty etc. Had lovely life employment programs, companies all worked/colluded together, government guided their industry and what happened? their whole economy is in shambles and has never really recovered.
and the likes of you and galt immediately jump to conclusion that it was all socialism's fault. right.

/yawn
No I leave that to economists and other academics who generally agree the keiretsu system of business led to the rise of Japanese economic boom during the 1950s-1990s and their decline post-2000.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7093|Moscow, Russia

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


Japan was a "perfect" candidate for socialism due to their social structure and culture, honor, hard work, loyalty etc. Had lovely life employment programs, companies all worked/colluded together, government guided their industry and what happened? their whole economy is in shambles and has never really recovered.
and the likes of you and galt immediately jump to conclusion that it was all socialism's fault. right.

/yawn
No I leave that to economists and other academics who generally agree the keiretsu system of business led to the rise of Japanese economic boom during the 1950s-1990s and their decline post-2000.
ah, i see. you are happy to be brainwashed by said "economists" and "academics" then. okay.

/yawn
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7034

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:


and the likes of you and galt immediately jump to conclusion that it was all socialism's fault. right.

/yawn
No I leave that to economists and other academics who generally agree the keiretsu system of business led to the rise of Japanese economic boom during the 1950s-1990s and their decline post-2000.
ah, i see. you are happy to be brainwashed by said "economists" and "academics" then. okay.

/yawn
yeah everything is propaganda except for anything produced by great soviet union.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6992|Canberra, AUS
"The only reasonable explanation for the stegosaurus carved in stone on the wall of the Cambodian temple is that the artist had either seen a stegosaur or had seen other art works of a stegosaur," Quist writes. "Either way, people and stegosaurs were living at the same time."
please, minnesotans, do your bit for the self-regard of democracy and don't elect this guy
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England

Shocking wrote:

Spark wrote:

Isn't that sort of the point?
If nationalism, short term gains and a complete disregard of the common good are your thing, yeah.

Look, everyone and their mum knew that the euro would run into a lot of trouble if political and fiscal union wouldn't be pushed through. I don't see why such control would be 'unacceptable'. people ought to have figured out long ago, before introducing the euro in their own respective countries, that political and fiscal union follow monetary union. It's not like the details of a country's budget will be decided upon in Brussels if they follow through with that though. The only task it (should) have is to enforce budget deficits and monitor/regulate debt&growth levels and respond accordingly, well in advance. That 'well in advance' bit and the 'monitoring' bit were exactly what's lacking.
I'll never understand why you assume that sharing a currency necessarily leads to political union. Please, for the love of god stop reading the statist magazine The Economist. Every solution they present has to do with increasing government size. They want more regulation, more intervention, etc. Bad economics of the Paul Krugman neo-Keynesian variety.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England

Shocking wrote:

You people across the atlantic really need to figure that "socialism" isn't a single, comprehensive ideology like libertarianism etc. There are MANY different schools of thought within it and there are vast differences between each country that you perceive as being 'socialist'.

I know that you feel it's impossibru for a country to grow or do anything and will be doomed to stagnate, crash and burn if it so much as subsidises healthcare coverage, but that doesn't really pertain to reality. (I'm not a socialist, although I guess by US standards I would be).
Lol.

No, it's the innate control freak desire to direct and touch everything that goes along with socialist governments that causes stagnation. Everything must be taxed and regulated and 'advised'. Bureaucracy is what really causes the stagnation, and you can't have socialism without massive bureaucracy.

Last edited by Jay (2012-08-15 06:45:54)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:


and the likes of you and galt immediately jump to conclusion that it was all socialism's fault. right.

/yawn
No I leave that to economists and other academics who generally agree the keiretsu system of business led to the rise of Japanese economic boom during the 1950s-1990s and their decline post-2000.
ah, i see. you are happy to be brainwashed by said "economists" and "academics" then. okay.

/yawn
High minimum wages, generous pension benefits, an aging population, these all have led to 'the lost decade' in Japan.

Shahter, I don't know why you even post here anymore. All I ever see you do is take swipes at me as if I care about anything you write. I don't. Really, I don't.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6470|what

Must be terrible that your economic conservative party are also obsessed with God, guns and gays.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6992|Canberra, AUS

Jay wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Spark wrote:

Isn't that sort of the point?
If nationalism, short term gains and a complete disregard of the common good are your thing, yeah.

Look, everyone and their mum knew that the euro would run into a lot of trouble if political and fiscal union wouldn't be pushed through. I don't see why such control would be 'unacceptable'. people ought to have figured out long ago, before introducing the euro in their own respective countries, that political and fiscal union follow monetary union. It's not like the details of a country's budget will be decided upon in Brussels if they follow through with that though. The only task it (should) have is to enforce budget deficits and monitor/regulate debt&growth levels and respond accordingly, well in advance. That 'well in advance' bit and the 'monitoring' bit were exactly what's lacking.
I'll never understand why you assume that sharing a currency necessarily leads to political union. Please, for the love of god stop reading the statist magazine The Economist. Every solution they present has to do with increasing government size. They want more regulation, more intervention, etc. Bad economics of the Paul Krugman neo-Keynesian variety.
the economist is statist? wtf
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England

AussieReaper wrote:

Must be terrible that your economic conservative party are also obsessed with God, guns and gays.
I fucking hate it.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England

Spark wrote:

Jay wrote:

Shocking wrote:

If nationalism, short term gains and a complete disregard of the common good are your thing, yeah.

Look, everyone and their mum knew that the euro would run into a lot of trouble if political and fiscal union wouldn't be pushed through. I don't see why such control would be 'unacceptable'. people ought to have figured out long ago, before introducing the euro in their own respective countries, that political and fiscal union follow monetary union. It's not like the details of a country's budget will be decided upon in Brussels if they follow through with that though. The only task it (should) have is to enforce budget deficits and monitor/regulate debt&growth levels and respond accordingly, well in advance. That 'well in advance' bit and the 'monitoring' bit were exactly what's lacking.
I'll never understand why you assume that sharing a currency necessarily leads to political union. Please, for the love of god stop reading the statist magazine The Economist. Every solution they present has to do with increasing government size. They want more regulation, more intervention, etc. Bad economics of the Paul Krugman neo-Keynesian variety.
the economist is statist? wtf
Yes. Pro bailout, pro cap and trade, pro regulations, anti-austerity. I know that what they say is considered economically conservative in the rest of the world, but to us over here they might as well be the mouth piece for the moderate wing of the Democratic party. Nothing they advocate would increase economic or personal freedom, just increase the size and scope of government meddling in the economy.

You might as well get your economic opinions from The New York Times or MSNBC.

Last edited by Jay (2012-08-15 07:22:03)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6992|Canberra, AUS
That doesn't make them statist. And definitely doesn't make them not worth listening to - unless you want to indulge in groupthink.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England

Spark wrote:

That doesn't make them statist. And definitely doesn't make them not worth listening to - unless you want to indulge in groupthink.
Yes, it's the very definition of statism. When your government meddles in your economy, bad things happen, like housing booms and crashes that drag the entire world economy down with you.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England
Say you run a business in a bad neighborhood. You've been paying a security company to keep your employees and property safe. You're deeply in debt. Now the neighborhood has gotten better. You don't need as much security anymore — so you plan to cut back. The security service says if you do that, some guards could lose their jobs. It needs you to keep spending what you have so they can stay employed.

Is this a good argument for you to keep paying what you always have? Of course not. Yet that's the case being made by politicians in Virginia and across the nation about defense spending and sequestration.

Sequestration refers to automatic cuts that will kick in Jan. 2 as a result of last year's Budget Control Act. In a piece published last week in The Virginian-Pilot, Republican House Majority Whip Eric Cantor warned that if sequestration occurs, "America's ability to defend freedom around the world will be severely diminished." The cuts would do "incredible damage," "devastate the economy," "threaten nearly a million jobs," "cause catastrophic damage," and so on.

Gov. Bob McDonnell has joined in the chorus, appearing at a "Stop Sequestration" rally in Northern Virginia. Tim Kaine, Democratic candidate for Senate, warns that an "all-cuts strategy" would slash "critical spending on defense." Kaine's opponent, George Allen, warns that "our military readiness is at risk and so are more than 200,000 jobs in Virginia."

Let's stipulate that Virginia, the No. 2 recipient of federal defense dollars, has a lot at stake in the federal budget fight. Let's also stipulate that cuts from sequestration could be different in kind from changes in force structure caused by shifting strategic priorities.

Still. It's a little rich to hear conservative Republicans treat national security as if it were a federal jobs program. For decades, conservatives have denounced government as inherently bloated, bureaucratic, inefficient and wasteful — a parasite that sucks the lifeblood out of the private sector. What's changed?

When he was sworn in as governor, Allen insisted the "cost of big government . . . is measured not in material terms alone, but in the toll it takes on the human spirit." He quickly empaneled a Blue Ribbon Strike Force to right-size state operations, and warned its members that "entrenched special interests" would try to block its progress. Don't let them, he said.

Now conservative Republicans insist trimming government spending will devastate the private sector, rather than free it to allocate resources to more productive uses.

This seems a stretch. For starters, ask yourself if either Virginia or the nation was economically or militarily prostrate in 2007. No? Of course they weren't. Yet if sequestration occurs, military spending will be cut less than 12 percent — reverting to 2007 levels.

https://reason.com/assets/mc/mriggs/2012_08/CatoGraph.jpg

True, some studies paint a grim picture. One that was released last month, written by a professor at George Mason along with Richmond-based Chmura Economics, was prepared for the Aerospace Industries Association (AIA) — or what the old George Allen might have called an "entrenched special interest." It finds that a one-year sequestration cut of $56.7 billion would lower GDP by $94.5 billion and "destroy 325,693 jobs.

Sounds awfully high. Benjamin Zycher, a senior fellow at the Pacific Research Institute, offers a different perspective (along with the private-security analogy at the start of this column) in a new policy analysis for the Cato Institute. He says the AIA paper wildly overstates the multiplier effect of defense spending.

"Changes in the growth rate of real defense outlays," he argues, "have little or no effect on changes in GDP growth." He points out that "real defense expenditures grew every year from 1981 through 1989 and then fell in eight of the subsequent 11 years." If defense spending is so crucial to the economy, then you would expect GDP to rise and fall accordingly. It didn't. The economy grew steadily every year in that period except for 1982 and 1991.

True, defense spending now makes up a smaller share of the overall federal budget than at any time since WWII. That is largely owing to spending increases elsewhere. But as Cato's David Boaz writes, to suggest that defense's share of the pie should remain unchanged means that any time Congress enacts an expensive new social program, it should give an equivalent sum to the Pentagon just to keep the ratios steady. This is not an argument made gracefully by those claiming to be fiscal conservatives.

Cantor also complains that sequestration would give us "the smallest ground force since 1940." And? Five bucks says a few of today's volunteer soldiers in Interceptor body armor, carrying M16s, night-vision monoculars, an M-249 SAW and a few other modern toys would have a field day against a platoon of WWII-era G.I.s toting M1 Garands.

The U.S. already spends 46 cents of every military dollar worldwide. Asking how defense spending will affect jobs or the economy is not the right question. The right question is: How much do we need to spend to keep America safe?
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/rtd- … r-2131151/
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5903

Okay how about some commentary? If I wanted to read a random news article I wouldn't be in a chat thread.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5675|London, England
If I wanted to write commentary I would've put it in its own thread.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5903

This may come as a surprise to you but no one is going to read a randomly posted news article. Especially from you, Mr. Predicable.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7093|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


No I leave that to economists and other academics who generally agree the keiretsu system of business led to the rise of Japanese economic boom during the 1950s-1990s and their decline post-2000.
ah, i see. you are happy to be brainwashed by said "economists" and "academics" then. okay.

/yawn
High minimum wages, generous pension benefits, an aging population, these all have led to 'the lost decade' in Japan.

Shahter, I don't know why you even post here anymore. All I ever see you do is take swipes at me as if I care about anything you write. I don't. Really, I don't.
i wasn't talking to you. about the likes of you - yes, but you, personally, don't interest me. really, you don't.

oh, and thank you for caring about my reasons to post, i'm fine in that regard.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,986|6949|949

I read what he posted, but I'm not a big fan of the "hey I found this article interesting and so should you" posting, especially with no commentary. That being said, the commentary could be-

Oh look, more politicians demonstrate they have no clue what reality is while arguing to protect their own interests. Mixed in with some esoteric economic charts that compare gdp to defense spending to refute one of said dumb politicians nonsensical statements.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6470|what

Are you honestly happy with the GOP's proposed social security plans?

It's so toxic that they've had to repeatedly mention that "over 55s won't be affected so don't worry." otherwise those on it would be up in arms.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

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