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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,937|5894|USA

SooOooOOooOOOoooN.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|5789

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Not really. There are two sides to the debate, and while "goblins = orcs" is the stronger position, the wikia you pointed to apparently favors the underdog.

A lot in it seems to be fan canon, with the it referencing things like LotR-related video games. As much as I like Battle for Middle Earth II, I'm not going to let it rule what I know of the book series. More of the misunderstanding comes from the differences between the Hobbit and the rest of the series. Tolkien used the two terms interchangeably, but the Hobbit could be misinterpreted by a reader who would decide that orcs are a goblin subrace, which would invalidate comments throughout the rest of his works. A good in-character explanation would be to embrace the different names from different cultures for the race. A good out-of-character explanation would be that Tolkien wanted to distance himself from traditional names for fantastical creatures where he reasonably could.


Also read the Silmarillion.
I've read it too.  That's why I differentiate the Hobbit "goblins" from the elven corrupted "orcs".  Goblins being a subrace of Orcs.  So, not all orcs are goblins.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,937|5894|USA

You should read more into it.

If you insist on clinging to that, the only support I could offer your stance is "all goblins are orcs" in the same way that not all humans are Asian, but Asian people are human (probably). I remember wondering about it when the first of his books I read was the Hobbit, but my viewpoint solidified with the rest of the books and every bit of material I've read related to it.

They are different names for the same race of creatures. Of the two, "Orc" is the correct one. This has been a matter of widespread debate and misunderstanding, mostly resulting from the usage in The Hobbit (Tolkien had changed his mind about it by LotR but the confusion in the earlier book was made worse by inconsistent backwards modifications). There are a couple of statements in The Hobbit which, if taken literally, suggest that Orcs are a subset of goblins. If we are to believe the indications from all other areas of Tolkien's writing, this is not correct. These are: some fairly clear statements in letters, the evolution of his standard terminology (see next paragraph), and the actual usage in LotR, all of which suggest that "Orc" was the true name of the race. (The pedigrees in Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia are thoroughly inaccurate and undependable.)

What happened was this. The creatures so referred to were invented along with the rest of Tolkien's subcreation during the writing of the Book of Lost Tales (the "pre-Silmarillion"). His usage in the early writing is somewhat varied but the movement is away from "goblin" and towards "orc". It was part of a general trend away from the terminology of traditional folklore (he felt that the familiar words would call up the wrong associations in the readers' minds, since his creations were quite different in specific ways). For the same general reasons he began calling the Deep Elves "Noldor" rather than "Gnomes", and avoided "Faerie" altogether. (On the other hand, he was stuck with "Wizards", an "imperfect" translation of Istari ('the Wise'), "Elves", and "Dwarves"; he did say once that he would have preferred "dwarrow", which, so he said, was more historically and linguistically correct, if he'd thought of it in time ...)

In The Hobbit, which originally was unconnected with the Silmarillion, he used the familiar term "goblin" for the benefit of modern readers. By the time of LotR, however, he'd decided that "goblin" wouldn't do -- Orcs were not storybook goblins (see above). (No doubt he also felt that "goblin", being Romance-derived, had no place in a work based so much on Anglo-Saxon and Northern traditions in general.) Thus, in LotR, the proper name of the race is "Orcs" (capital "O"), and that name is found in the index along with Ents, Men, etc., while "goblin" is not in the index at all. There are a handful of examples of "goblin" being used (always with a small "g") but it seems in these cases to be a kind of slang for Orcs.

Tolkien's explanation inside the story was that the "true" name of the creatures was Orc (an anglicized version of Sindarin Orch, pl. Yrch). As the "translator" of the ancient manuscripts, he "substituted" "Goblin" for "Orch" when he translated Bilbo's diary, but for The Red Book he reverted to a form of the ancient word.

[The actual source of the word "orc" is Beowulf: "orc-nass", translated as "death-corpses". It has nothing to do with cetaceans.]

http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#OrcGoblin
Q: Are Orcs and Goblins the Same Thing?

ANSWER: Yes, Orcs and Goblins are the same thing. People sometimes argue that Orcs are in truth the “larger” Goblins but that is not the case. Tolkien freely used “orcs” and “goblins” interchangeably throughout The Lord of the Rings but he also used them in similar fashion (but to a lesser degree) in The Hobbit. In fact, according to John Rateliff in The History of the Hobbit, Part One: Mr. Baggins, J.R.R. Tolkien used “orcs” and “goblins” interchangeably going all the way back to the stories in The Book of Lost Tales, including “The Fall of Gondolin” (the first of those stories to be written).

Some readers argue that Tolkien only intended to use “orc” to refer to larger goblins in The Hobbit, but he in fact describes big goblins simply as large or big goblins in several places, as when narrating the events of the Battle of Five Armies:

Day drew on. The goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel. Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken. Now Bard was fighting to defend the Eastern spur, and yet giving slowly back; and the elf-lords were at bay about their king upon the southern arm, near to the watch-post on Ravenhill.

It can be shown that Tolkien used orc in Orcrist, the name of the Elvish sword Thorin claimed from the trolls’ hoard, going all the way back to the earliest published edition of The Hobbit — and that Elrond translated that name as “goblin cleaver”. Although this seems sufficient proof to many fans, others feel that Tolkien was distinguishing between goblins of different size by calling some “orcs” and others “goblins”. There is, however, no textual support for this point of view in any of J.R.R. Tolkien’s letters, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth, the twelve volumes of The History of Middle-earth, or the two volumes of The History of The Hobbit.

Orcs are goblins and goblins are Orcs and that is as Tolkien always viewed the matter.


Xenite.Org (http://s.tt/18Xb2)
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,760|5275|what

Tolkien was also a racist.

Evil -
The Dark Lord Sauron
Black Riders / Nazgul
The Black Gate
Black Orcs


Good -
Gandalf the White
Blonde, blue eyed and fair haired elves
Gondor the "white" city. White tree banner.

Wake up sheeple!
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

"coz you a far cry from acclaim nigga ubisoft"
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|5789

AussieReaper wrote:

Tolkien was also a racist.

Evil -
The Dark Lord Sauron
Black Riders / Nazgul
The Black Gate
Black Orcs


Good -
Gandalf the White
Blonde, blue eyed and fair haired elves
Gondor the "white" city. White tree banner.

Wake up sheeple!
The times, but...
Saruman
Gollum
Grima Wormtongue
Goblin King
Ring Wraiths were white men.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4480|London, England
Black has always been associated with evil. Has fuckall to do with skin color. Only a racist would read that into it tbh.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5754|949

And black = evil, white = good is a classical portrayal, metaphorical day and night, dark and light.  Aussie is being stupid on purpose (go figure).
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|4301|Sydney
Pretty sure his post was tongue-in-cheek guys...
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,760|5275|what

I thought I might have over done it with the "wake up sheeple", but turns out the bait was good enough.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

"coz you a far cry from acclaim nigga ubisoft"
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5897|Noizyland

Apparently my apartment just falls within the Red Carpet Zone which would be fine if it didn't mean I wasn't allowed to park anywhere on my street. It's gonna be a fucking madhouse tomorrow.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Macbeth
Banned
+2,443|4708

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

And black = evil, white = good is a classical portrayal, metaphorical day and night, dark and light.  Aussie is being stupid on purpose (go figure).
Does it matter? Fantasy is terrible genre anyway. Period.
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|5861|Toronto | Canada

macbeth is fantasy
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5619

only if you speak iambic pentameter
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5897|Noizyland

I passed three trolls being constructed on my way to work this morning.

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=27407a697c&view=att&th=13b44d4a1b43e4e4&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1419844637475995648-1&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P_YgVdw5xhB5dHedEM0Y7nS&sadet=1354069552498&sads=CNxSV734TD0syOZoX4AOUlW1lDQ&sadssc=1

Proceedings are starting in around 20 minutes I think. Do all movies get this sort of fanfare?
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5619

Ty wrote:

I passed three trolls being constructed on my way to work this morning.
what a coincidence, i passed three trolls just getting to this thread!
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+702|4665|Toronto


I'm waiting for the German dub.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,760|5275|what

Ty wrote:

Do all movies get this sort of fanfare?
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/rac_goshawk/facepalm.gif
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

"coz you a far cry from acclaim nigga ubisoft"
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5897|Noizyland

Wat?

It was pretty mental here yesterday. Good fun but it took me twice as long as usual to get home. Got to say hi to Hugo Weaving who's rocking a pretty mean beard at the moment. First reviews from the film are hugely positive including for the new fps, though judging from some comments it's going to have another traditional Peter Jackson slow-burn first half.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,937|5894|USA

Eh, I enjoy the slow burn.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,760|5275|what

Ty wrote:

Wat?
It's the Hobbit. Of course the movie is going to generate more excitement than anything previous.

Such a stupid question to ask "Do all movies get this sort of fanfare?"

No, you tit.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

"coz you a far cry from acclaim nigga ubisoft"
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5897|Noizyland

I'm just saying, I'm not in the most objective position. New Zealand is nutty bananas over Peter Jackson's Tolkein stuff so it's easy to get confused in regard to whether it's the huge deal that everyone here makes it out to be.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5619

you should ban him, Ty. that way, everyone thinks you*re a badass and then noone will mess with NZ.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|5812|Tampa Bay Florida

Macbeth wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

And black = evil, white = good is a classical portrayal, metaphorical day and night, dark and light.  Aussie is being stupid on purpose (go figure).
Does it matter? Fantasy is terrible genre anyway. Period.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Lincoln was better
Well guess what I'm going to wait to see on DVD rather than theaters? That's right, Lincoln.
My comment still stands.  Daniel Day Lewis shits all over Hollywood.  After seeing Lincoln I can't take any other actor seriously, especially the garbage that is LOTR.

Last edited by Spearhead (2012-11-29 01:22:27)

Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5897|Noizyland

That's a very restricted stance. Especially since Day-Lewis only does about one movie every three years.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Ultrafunkula
Hector: Ding, ding, ding, ding...
+1,975|5596|6 6 4 oh, I forget

I'm about 30 pages in on the book. Need to pick it up and go through more pages before the local premiere on 12.12.12




Macbeth wrote:

Fantasy is terrible genre anyway. Period.
This was quite funny from a True Blood fan.

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