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2011-04-13 03:30:43
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

I've not really noticed it as much of a problem in the UK or Europe TBH, teachers used to be professional and keep their personal views out of the classroom.

Maybe you guys pay too much attention, and give too much air time to, single issue loons - which you seem to have more of also.

Maybe centrist social democracies are just better than the wild swings from left to right you experience in your two party state, and each side is so desperate for the next generation of voters they see schools as an indoctrinational battleground instead of a place of learning.
We've always had a system dominated by two parties, but our school system hasn't always been like this, so most likely the two issues are unrelated...at least in the way you imply with that linkage. I think the schools have been viewed as indoctrination opportunities--particularly by left-leaning activists--since the 1960s, starting with the Universities and slowly working their way down through the entirety of the public school system. Prior to the 1960s, the general "political mood" (if there even was one) in the public school system, up through university, was probably more conservative/neutral than anything else.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-04-13 04:08:46
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6764|PNW

Jay wrote:

The right wants prayer in school. The left wants all religious symbolism removed from school.
The right wants creationism taught in school. The left wants creationism left out of texts (which I agree with, duh).
The right wants sex education classes removed from school, or abstinence only education installed. The left wants sex education to start in kindergarten.

I can keep listing topics if you want, but it all comes down to both sides wanting to brainwash kids as early in life as possible. It's why the religious right are the most likely to homeschool their kids.
While true for some people, that statement couldn't be more black and white if it was filmed in 1935.

Separation of church and state should be just that. Schools should neither foster nor persecute religious beliefs, nor should it interfere with religious activities unless reasonably seen as harmful or threatening. This is the viewpoint I'd expect a lot of people from the left and right could agree with.
2011-04-13 04:25:16
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6767|Moscow, Russia

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Whiel true for some people, that statement couldn't be more black and white if it was filmed in 1935.

Separation of church and state should be just that. Schools should neither foster nor persecute religious beliefs, nor should it interfere with religious activities unless reasonably seen as harmful or threatening. This is the viewpoint I'd expect a lot of people from the left and right could agree with.
church is still tax exempt (it sure is russia) and in many other ways directly supported by the state, regardless if they would admit it or not. untill that is taken care of i don't see any problem with people who aren't religious wanting their voices heard and their needs accomodated.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-04-13 05:07:02
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Jay wrote:

The right wants prayer in school. The left wants all religious symbolism removed from school.
The right wants creationism taught in school. The left wants creationism left out of texts (which I agree with, duh).
The right wants sex education classes removed from school, or abstinence only education installed. The left wants sex education to start in kindergarten.

I can keep listing topics if you want, but it all comes down to both sides wanting to brainwash kids as early in life as possible. It's why the religious right are the most likely to homeschool their kids.
Whiel true for some people, that statement couldn't be more black and white if it was filmed in 1935.

Separation of church and state should be just that. Schools should neither foster nor persecute religious beliefs, nor should it interfere with religious activities unless reasonably seen as harmful or threatening. This is the viewpoint I'd expect a lot of people from the left and right could agree with.
Not really. The religious argue that your ideal wholly secular state is installing atheism as the state religion.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-04-13 05:51:12
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

We've always had a system dominated by two parties, but our school system hasn't always been like this, so most likely the two issues are unrelated...at least in the way you imply with that linkage. I think the schools have been viewed as indoctrination opportunities--particularly by left-leaning activists--since the 1960s, starting with the Universities and slowly working their way down through the entirety of the public school system. Prior to the 1960s, the general "political mood" (if there even was one) in the public school system, up through university, was probably more conservative/neutral than anything else.
To some extent the lefties have infiltrated the educational system globally, although the only place I hear the complaints from is the US.
Maybe they are just more vocal, knowing they have tenure.

Jay wrote:

Not really. The religious argue that your ideal wholly secular state is installing atheism as the state religion.
Atheism isn't a belief system or a construct, its the default viewpoint. If people want to learn about religion they are still free to do so.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-04-13 05:52:51)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2011-04-13 05:58:00
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

We've always had a system dominated by two parties, but our school system hasn't always been like this, so most likely the two issues are unrelated...at least in the way you imply with that linkage. I think the schools have been viewed as indoctrination opportunities--particularly by left-leaning activists--since the 1960s, starting with the Universities and slowly working their way down through the entirety of the public school system. Prior to the 1960s, the general "political mood" (if there even was one) in the public school system, up through university, was probably more conservative/neutral than anything else.
To some extent the lefties have infiltrated the educational system globally, although the only place I hear the complaints from is the US.
Maybe they are just more vocal, knowing they have tenure.

Jay wrote:

Not really. The religious argue that your ideal wholly secular state is installing atheism as the state religion.
Atheism isn't a belief system or a construct, its the default viewpoint. If people want to learn about religion they are still free to do so.
Yes, I know atheism isn't a belief system. That doesn't stop the fundamentalist Christians from labeling it so because it contains aspect of faith. Believing one way or the other if god exists requires a leap of faith since there is no proof in either direction. Sure, they don't get together and form churches of atheism or any such nonsense, but the right does have a point about the faith aspect.

Edit - I had one southerner argue with me for days once that secular humanism is a cult. What's the official state religion of the US? Secular humanism.

Last edited by Jay (2011-04-13 05:58:59)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-04-13 06:00:13
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX
Believing god exists requires a leap of faith, not believing in anything doesn't.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2011-04-13 06:02:48
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Believing god exists requires a leap of faith, not believing in anything doesn't.
I don't want to derail this thread.

I believe both sides of the coin require faith. I prefer to sit on the edge of that coin as an agnostic.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-04-13 06:05:22
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX
Seems to be on-topic to me, and its strange the right-wing wants religion in education, you'd think it would be the last thing since religion is just another form of indoctrinated socialism.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2011-04-13 06:07:02
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+563|6706|Purplicious Wisconsin
Socialism could work if humanity was perfect, we're not perfect so obviously it doesn't work.

Last edited by War Man (2011-04-13 06:07:09)

The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2011-04-13 06:09:48
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6767|Moscow, Russia

War Man wrote:

Socialism could work if humanity was perfect, we're not perfect so obviously it doesn't work.
and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-04-13 06:21:14
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX

Shahter wrote:

War Man wrote:

Socialism could work if humanity was perfect, we're not perfect so obviously it doesn't work.
and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
It works for some people, just not very many.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2011-04-13 06:25:21
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6767|Moscow, Russia

Shahter wrote:

and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
there, i highlighted the important part for you.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-04-13 18:07:23
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

War Man wrote:

Socialism could work if humanity was perfect, we're not perfect so obviously it doesn't work.
and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
No...capitalism assumes imperfection in humanity as a default and leverages that.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-04-13 18:10:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

War Man wrote:

Socialism could work if humanity was perfect, we're not perfect so obviously it doesn't work.
and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
No...capitalism assumes imperfection in humanity as a default and leverages that.
Correct. It harnesses and uses the emotions that socialism wishes would just go away.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-04-13 18:32:32
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6764|PNW

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Believing god exists requires a leap of faith, not believing in anything doesn't.
I don't want to derail this thread.

I believe both sides of the coin require faith. I prefer to sit on the edge of that coin as an agnostic.
This.

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Separation of church and state should be just that. Schools should neither foster nor persecute religious beliefs, nor should it interfere with religious activities unless reasonably seen as harmful or threatening. This is the viewpoint I'd expect a lot of people from the left and right could agree with.
Not really. The religious argue that your ideal wholly secular state is installing atheism as the state religion.
Of course the religious mouthpieces are going to say that for the support of their church organizations or religious constituents. I've talked with more religious people who think that the state should neither impose upon nor bar religion from public schools. Student-organized bible club? Sure. Mandatory Bible studies and a morning prayer? No. If asked, teachers should feel free to give their own opinion either way without fear of reprisal from (at least) the administration. The same should apply for students.
2011-04-13 19:39:35
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6667|Canberra, AUS

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

War Man wrote:

Socialism could work if humanity was perfect, we're not perfect so obviously it doesn't work.
and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
No...capitalism assumes imperfection in humanity as a default and leverages that.
Yeah this is my understanding as well.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-04-13 20:24:12
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6767|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

War Man wrote:

Socialism could work if humanity was perfect, we're not perfect so obviously it doesn't work.
and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
No...capitalism assumes imperfection in humanity as a default and leverages abuses that.
fixed.

Last edited by Shahter (2011-04-13 20:24:28)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-04-14 00:24:39
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6708

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
No...capitalism assumes imperfection in humanity as a default and leverages abuses that.
fixed.
how the fuck do they teach microeconomics in russia lol
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2011-04-14 12:21:06
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


and capitalism does work for imperfect humanity, right?
No...capitalism assumes imperfection in humanity as a default and leverages abuses that.
fixed.
Oh? Do tell.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-04-14 22:36:44
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6767|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

No...capitalism assumes imperfection in humanity as a default and leverages abuses that.
fixed.
Oh? Do tell.
oh, so you can't put two and two together? k, here we go:

capitalism is centered around capital (duh) and as such it is devoid of any morality and altogether unconcerned with humanity. it treats everything as tools to be used in competition. whichever tools are the most effective are being used the most. in society full of assorted g@lts, it's imperfections that usually provide for the most ecffective tools - hence the abuse.

is above simple enough for you to understand?

Last edited by Shahter (2011-04-14 22:39:37)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-04-14 23:59:58
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6643|USA

Jay wrote:

Nic wrote:

It would be nice for religion to be taught in schools, but not as factual teachings. More, history and beliefs of the different religions, creationism being a part of those beliefs. Let the kids decide for themselves what they believe.

If they are going to teach Christianity in schools, the other major religions should be taught as well.
I think that stuff should be left at home. Why would a science department teach creationism? I wouldn't want to force biology teachers to do that. If you want to have an elective religion class, fine. But you can't make that stuff a requirement.
You do not have to teach the philosophy of the religions as fact, but is there something wrong with teaching the existence of it and how it has shaped our world in a history class?

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-15 00:00:31)

2011-04-15 05:18:56
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


fixed.
Oh? Do tell.
oh, so you can't put two and two together? k, here we go:

capitalism is centered around capital (duh) and as such it is devoid of any morality and altogether unconcerned with humanity. it treats everything as tools to be used in competition. whichever tools are the most effective are being used the most. in society full of assorted g@lts, it's imperfections that usually provide for the most ecffective tools - hence the abuse.

is above simple enough for you to understand?
Oh, the above is certainly simplistic...doesn't make it at all accurate. But it certainly is simplistic. I'll give you that. How about you tell us all how socialism isn't abusive to the human condition, in comparison?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-04-15 05:47:45
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6767|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

How about you tell us all how socialism isn't abusive to the human condition, in comparison?
remind me, when exactly did i say anything like that?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-04-15 06:22:34
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6708

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


fixed.
Oh? Do tell.
oh, so you can't put two and two together? k, here we go:

capitalism is centered around capital (duh) and as such it is devoid of any morality and altogether unconcerned with humanity. it treats everything as tools to be used in competition. whichever tools are the most effective are being used the most. in society full of assorted g@lts, it's imperfections that usually provide for the most ecffective tools - hence the abuse.

is above simple enough for you to understand?
aint it funny that countries under capitalism are better even though capitalism admits that it doesnt care about lives but profits? and the ones yelling help the poor usually fucks everyone over.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

 

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