lowing wrote:
Jay wrote:
lowing wrote:
but before religion, what defined morality? and before morality, what established law? and before law, what was used to govern and how was it done?
Again, all theory...
Who says there was morality? What is morality? Generally it comes down to placing simple limits on society to keep chaos to a minimum. Why would a society ban murder? Because the retribution that ensues causes chaos. There have been tribes of cannibals discovered in the Amazon and on New Guinea as recently as this past century. Their blood feuds lasted generations and nearly led to their extinction on multiple occasions according to their folk stories. If someone had stepped in, laid down the law, and said 'hey, you kill another human, you die regardless of the feud' it gives both sides a chance to end it amicably and with honor.
Same goes for things like theft. It's in the best interest of whatever leadership there is to stop thefts and enforce punishments simply so there is order and people can worry less.
But here's the real historical item that tips us off: writing did not come about until after we had settled down to farm. It's rather difficult to codify and enforce laws or create religions without the written word. Before that we would've had nothing more than localized superstitions with these guys spinning three times before crossing a stream and those guys tossing a stick in before crossing. No unification. Without that unification brought about by the written word, morality and religion as you define it would not be able to exist. There certainly wouldn't be any possibility of a global morality (and there still isn't).
I almost bought into this, then I started to think if I could think of any society, that has ever existed that had govt. and yet no religion.
Even the cannibals you speak of probably worship sticks and rocks and shit.
Well, many Native American tribes didn't have organized religion like you're thinking of. A lot of it was simple respect and homage to their ancestors. Very different from a concept like the Ten Commandments. Morality certainly doesn't have to be based in religion or religious teaching. They are mutually exclusive.
I mean, I don't adhere to any religion and I'm certainly not afraid of ending up in the Christian hell and I'm not out in the streets shooting people or stealing. Why? Well, two reasons. For one, society says that I can't do these things or I will be punished. Good enough reason on it's own, I value my time and my life. But I also have morality imposed on me by the philosophy I have chosen to follow. I believe in liberty, but not at the expense of others' life, liberty or property. There's nothing holding me to this philosophy except my own beliefs. I'm free to come and go from it as I please, but I choose not to unbind myself.
That philosophy also happens to be the basis for English Common Law and American Law. Thank John Locke.
