BF2S Forums $3B taxpayer’s money down the drain.

Shahter wrote:

@FEOS and Turq: "facts"? nothing reported by media is fact, because all media - not just western, any media, russian included - is biased. it's their fucking job to be biased.

so, unless you are actually friends with someone from iraqi oil ministry, go discuss something you know about.

Because your "friends in the oil industry" wouldn't have a bias? Especially if they didn't get the follow-on contract?

Seriously, "dude". Some of us DO know something about this stuff. You don't have to "know someone who knows someone" to understand how things work, ffs.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

@FEOS and Turq: "facts"? nothing reported by media is fact, because all media - not just western, any media, russian included - is biased. it's their fucking job to be biased.

so, unless you are actually friends with someone from iraqi oil ministry, go discuss something you know about.

Because your "friends in the oil industry" wouldn't have a bias?

because they aren't paid to be biased.

Especially if they didn't get the follow-on contract?

it wasn't their own business. personally they didn't lose much.

Seriously, "dude". Some of us DO know something about this stuff.

yeah, yeah, your media informs you well. heard that before.

You don't have to "know someone who knows someone" to understand how things work, ffs.

of course. now, when i told you how the contracts have been broken, it's time for you to analyze the info and form your own opinion. go ahead.

What makes you think my only source of info is from the media?

Your presumptions will burn you.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

What makes you think my only source of info is from the media?

Your presumptions will burn you.

i don't know much about you, you keep telling me the exact same bullshit that your media reports - that's why i assume you get this info from there.

I use media reports that correlate with other information I get from other sources that aren't media. Which means that the media reports aren't "propaganda" or "biased". At least not all of them, anyway.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

i don't know much about you, you keep telling me the exact same bullshit that your media reports - that's why i assume you get this info from there.

I use media reports that correlate with other information I get from other sources that aren't media. Which means that the media reports aren't "propaganda" or "biased". At least not all of them, anyway.

I do not use media reports because those very seldom correlate with actual information I get from other sources that aren't media. Which means that most media reports are "propaganda" and "biased". And since there's no way for an ordinary person like me to recognize every piece of bs they spew for what it actually is, i trust none at all.

I don't trust the media either. At least not wholesale. But I don't distrust them wholesale, either. I understand that many times, they only report what they see or what they are shown and they often are not educated enough in the nuance of the topic on which they are reporting to provide the full context required...or they jump to ridiculous conclusions for the same reason.

But in this case, it's simply a recitation of facts from the Iraqi Oil Ministry of the companies that bid on oil contracts, once they were opened for bidding, and that Iraq hadn't allowed foreign oil companies access for 30 years under Saddam (which could open up a whole trove of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories). That's it. You can't really argue with simple facts like that, as they're easily verifiable.

Now, certain companies that didn't get to participate may grouse over the process, but that's a different issue.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

But in this case, it's simply a recitation of facts from the Iraqi Oil Ministry of the companies that bid on oil contracts, once they were opened for bidding, and that Iraq hadn't allowed foreign oil companies access for 30 years under Saddam (which could open up a whole trove of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories). That's it. You can't really argue with simple facts like that, as they're easily verifiable.

that's exactly what i did - used the ways of verifying those "facts" available to me. as it turned out, the facts weren't true. oops.

Your version of the facts weren't true? That's too bad.

At least you were man enough to admit it.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

But in this case, it's simply a recitation of facts from the Iraqi Oil Ministry of the companies that bid on oil contracts, once they were opened for bidding, and that Iraq hadn't allowed foreign oil companies access for 30 years under Saddam (which could open up a whole trove of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories). That's it. You can't really argue with simple facts like that, as they're easily verifiable.

that's exactly what i did - used the ways of verifying those "facts" available to me. as it turned out, the facts weren't true. oops.

Your version of the facts weren't true? That's too bad.

At least you were man enough to admit it.

ah, so you juggling with words now. very well, i knew you had nothing to back your so called "facts" with.

Its not good for them.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Your version of the facts weren't true? That's too bad.

At least you were man enough to admit it.

ah, so you juggling with words now. very well, i knew you had nothing to back your so called "facts" with.

uh...what?

You may be confusing consulting with actual development contracts. Your friends may very well have been contracted by the Iraqi Oil Ministry to provide consulting services, but there wasn't any Russian oil company exploiting Iraqi oil fields for profit. All oil profits went to the national Iraqi oil company, because they were the ones who exploited the fields. That's all that report--which came from the Iraqi Oil Ministry--was saying.

Does that clarify?

what is it supposed to clarify? and when exactly did i say anything about anybody working on exploiting iraqi oil fields for profit? you assume too much.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

uh...what?

You may be confusing consulting with actual development contracts. Your friends may very well have been contracted by the Iraqi Oil Ministry to provide consulting services, but there wasn't any Russian oil company exploiting Iraqi oil fields for profit. All oil profits went to the national Iraqi oil company, because they were the ones who exploited the fields. That's all that report--which came from the Iraqi Oil Ministry--was saying.

Does that clarify?

what is it supposed to clarify? and when exactly did i say anything about anybody working on exploiting iraqi oil fields for profit? you assume too much.

OK. Then what exactly were you saying? Spell it out clearly. Word for word.

i trust you can read, right? so scroll back and see for yourself.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

what is it supposed to clarify? and when exactly did i say anything about anybody working on exploiting iraqi oil fields for profit? you assume too much.

OK. Then what exactly were you saying? Spell it out clearly. Word for word.

i trust you can read, right? so scroll back and see for yourself.

Yes, I can read. That's what started this all, remember. You haven't been very clear, other than "you know some people." So spell it out. What work did those people do in Iraq and when? You haven't provided that information, and it would help frame the discussion as to what "facts" we're dealing with.

11 Bravo wrote:

right so one question for you guys...

if the govt forking out money for a group of people is so good for them....then explain why american indians, who get more than any other group in the US, are poor and jobless and their neighborhoods look like shit?  then explain why tribes who are not officially recognized by the US and do not get a hand out are prosperous and successful?  ill wait.

Alcoholism is a big part of it.  While handouts can encourage dependency, being sectioned off into reservations that are removed from open society can have a legacy of cultural depression.  So, it was kind of a perfect storm for social problems.

The Native American tribes that weren't forced into these reservations were allowed to properly integrate with the mainstream.

So while handouts probably contributed to the problem, being sectioned off into reservations was the main reason.  Even if they had just been put onto these reservations without handouts, they'd have most of the same problems.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Yes, I can read. That's what started this all, remember. You haven't been very clear, other than "you know some people." So spell it out. What work did those people do in Iraq and when? You haven't provided that information, and it would help frame the discussion as to what "facts" we're dealing with.

i'm not carrying them with me at all times, you know. i'll ask next time we meet.

So you didn't have that info when you started all this? Yet you felt confident enough to dispute other info that was provided in black and white?

as i said numerous times, you didn't provide any info worth considering against the words of people who actualy work in the business. so yeah, i didn't know specifics, i still don't know them, but i'm still sure of what i said and no wikipedia quote or any other crap you dig up on internetz is going to change my opinion. but, if you want, i'll ask what kinda business my friends were engaged in next time we meet. are we clear?