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Topic closed

2011-04-11 13:42:53
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6599|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

how do you know when that is exactly? Some babies die at birth. Does that mean they were never a human life?
Yeah, pretty much. Depends when.

Would you call miscarriages "human life"? I wouldn't.

Foetuses are things with the potential to become human life, which is not to say that they already are. Much as an acorn is distinct from an oak tree, a foetus is not the same as a human life. When does an acorn become an oak tree?
ummm no, a miscarriage is the termination of a human life. Just like any death is not considered human life. IT WAS human life.

Sorry, we are talking about human beings here, please throw the acorns in the pile along with toe nail clippings, kidneys, iron ore, maggots, and houseflies as comparisons to unborn babies.
Sorry, but we're talking (dispassionately if you want to be taken seriously at all) about life and technical, not emotive, definitions of it.

A tree is life. Animals are life. It's easier to look at these things in those terms as they are easier to look at dispassionately.

Regarding a fertilised egg as being human life makes very little sense. What defines it as human life? Are we getting into metaphysics here? Why is that different to the distinction between an acorn and an oak tree - explain the difference.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2011-04-11 13:45:17)

2011-04-11 13:43:00
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

UnkleRukus wrote:

lowing wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:


I used neither of those arguments, good one chief.
You also never answered the question.
When asked, it is easy for me to give my opinion to the exact moment... Why isn't so easy for you? Simply answer. When exactly does the moment of human life happen in your opinion?
When it has all of its organs, I stated that 5 pages ago. How can something live when it lacks the necessary organs and thought functions.
Easy, when human life is in development. As I said, a human being, from conception to death at 120 years old, is in a constant state of development and growth. You can not proceed to the next stage of development without first advancing through the preceding stages. Not one stage is any more or less important than any other in that development. That is why a HUMAN life begins at conception. It is not moral it is not religious. It is simple truth.

Also, there is not a single moment when bam a heart appears, or bam a brain, and bam lungs. They develop gradually as human life takes develops.
This means, there is no magic line a fetus jumps over to be considered a human life. The only magic lines there are in the development of human life is the starting line. Conception. and the finish line. Death
2011-04-11 13:48:18
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Yeah, pretty much. Depends when.

Would you call miscarriages "human life"? I wouldn't.

Foetuses are things with the potential to become human life, which is not to say that they already are. Much as an acorn is distinct from an oak tree, a foetus is not the same as a human life. When does an acorn become an oak tree?
ummm no, a miscarriage is the termination of a human life. Just like any death is not considered human life. IT WAS human life.

Sorry, we are talking about human beings here, please throw the acorns in the pile along with toe nail clippings, kidneys, iron ore, maggots, and houseflies as comparisons to unborn babies.
Sorry, but we're talking (dispassionately if you want to be taken seriously at all) about life and technical, not emotive, definitions of it.

A tree is life. Animals are life. It's easier to look at these things in those terms as they are easier to look at dispassionately.

Regarding a fertilised egg as being human life makes very little sense. What defines it as human life? Are we getting into metaphysics here?
Well if you want to get all technical and dispassionate about it. (which I already was) Explain how TECHNICALLY a fetus is not life at all? Are you suggesting a plant is more alive than a fetus?
2011-04-11 13:51:20
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6017|...
the argument was that a fetus is in the same state as a plant minus the 'independent existence' part for the greater part of its life.

theres a difference between a plant and a human, to assume a fetus is 100% human life is to ignore the passage of time, really. You have to draw a line somewhere.
inane little opines
2011-04-11 13:51:49
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5277|foggy bottom
life starts at erection
Tu Stultus Es
2011-04-11 13:56:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Shocking wrote:

the argument was that a fetus is in the same state as a plant minus the 'independent existence' part for the greater part of its life.

theres a difference between a plant and a human, to assume a fetus is 100% human life is to ignore the passage of time, really. You have to draw a line somewhere.
an acorn contains seeds, in the ground the seed germinates, and regardless if you dig it up at 2 feet tall as a sapling or cut it down at 75 feet high it is still a tree.

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-11 14:02:21)

2011-04-11 14:01:57
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6017|...
in tree talk

fetus = seed

baby = growing seed

seed =/= plant

baby = plant in development
inane little opines
2011-04-11 14:04:02
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Shocking wrote:

in tree talk

fetus = seed

baby = growing seed

seed =/= plant

baby = plant in development
that is wrong.

egg=seed

fertilized egg= germinated seed

fetus =sapling

baby=small tree

adult = big tree
2011-04-11 14:05:21
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5277|foggy bottom
so men shoot out eggs when they ejaculate?
Tu Stultus Es
2011-04-11 14:06:14
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6017|...
with seed I meant the acorn state so yeah, germinated seed.

this is coming down to a difference in opinion (again). Biologically you're ending a "human" life. The ethical value of a fetus however is much less than a fullgrown human.
inane little opines
2011-04-11 14:11:27
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Shocking wrote:

this is coming down to a difference in opinion (again). Biologically you're ending a "human" life. The ethical value of a fetus however is much less than a fullgrown human.
now we are in complete agreement.
2011-04-11 14:12:23
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6017|...
So what do you think makes us human?
inane little opines
2011-04-11 14:12:52
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6790|PNW

"Many of these trees were my friends! Creatures I have known from nut and acorn. They had voices of their own...a wizard should KNOW BETTAH!"
2011-04-11 14:13:10
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Shocking wrote:

So what do you think makes us human?
Are we talking biology now? or are we talking something else?

To be honest I have no idea. That is a great question.

Some say we are human because we have a soul. Some say self awareness make us human. I say we are arrogant to think either is exclusive to human beings.

For me human is nothing more than a title. No different than lion or tiger or dog.

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-11 14:18:15)

2011-04-11 14:15:55
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6017|...
Surely its not just biology that makes you human though?
inane little opines
2011-04-11 14:17:46
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Shocking wrote:

Surely its not just biology that makes you human though?
i edited read up 1 please
2011-04-11 14:18:05
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6790|PNW

Shocking wrote:

Surely its not just biology that makes you human though?
You're not bringing metaphysics into the discussion, are you?
2011-04-11 14:19:32
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6017|...

lowing wrote:

Some say we are human because we have a soul. Some say self awareness make us human. I say we are arrogant to think either is exclusive to human beings.

For me human is nothing more than a title. No different than lion or tiger or dog.
So you wouldn't say we have achieved a 'higher' state of being than our animal counterparts due to increased cognitive capacity/ability?

unnamednewmbie13 wrote:

You're not bringing metaphysics into the discussion, are you?
This topic has been on life support since page 10

Last edited by Shocking (2011-04-11 14:24:17)

inane little opines
2011-04-11 14:22:41
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Shocking wrote:

lowing wrote:

Some say we are human because we have a soul. Some say self awareness make us human. I say we are arrogant to think either is exclusive to human beings.

For me human is nothing more than a title. No different than lion or tiger or dog.
So you wouldn't say we have achieved a 'higher' state of being than our animal counterparts due to increased cognitive capacity/ability?
We all play with the toys we are given ( or have developed). Some animals have strength, some speed, some cunning. Humans, intellectual thought. Who is to say any one of them is better than the other. We all do what we have to survive in our own ways.

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-11 14:27:42)

2011-04-11 14:27:19
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6790|PNW

Shocking wrote:

unnamednewmbie13 wrote:

You're not bringing metaphysics into the discussion, are you?
This topic has been on life support since page 10
It's jumped around, but even so: what does metaphysics have to do with life support ethics?


lowing wrote:

We all play with the toys we are given. Some animals have strength, some speed, some cunning. Humans intellectual thought. Who is to say any one of them is better than the other. We all do what we have to survive in our own ways.
I...I agree with lowing.

But I'd say human intelligence stands a good chance to save Earth from a megadisaster if one doesn't kill us before we can develop technology to shield against it.
2011-04-11 14:28:45
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6017|...
In the whole defining fetuses as being human life I reckon the definition of it (not only biological) is important.
inane little opines
2011-04-11 15:08:16
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

Shocking wrote:

In the whole defining fetuses as being human life I reckon the definition of it (not only biological) is important.
and that is all I was trying to get established so we all knew what it was that was being aborted......and now it is understood it wasn't fuckin' toenails, or iron ore.

Actually everyone should be proud, 30 pages and it stayed on topic, except for the few that decided to make it all about me instead of the topic.
2011-04-11 15:14:39
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+563|6732|Purplicious Wisconsin

tuckergustav wrote:

Also, if you are pro-life and have any exceptions...then you are pro-choice.
Then everyone is pro-choice by your logic.
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2011-04-11 15:28:00
tuckergustav
...
+1,590|5931|...

War Man wrote:

tuckergustav wrote:

Also, if you are pro-life and have any exceptions...then you are pro-choice.
Then everyone is pro-choice by your logic.
No...there are actually people that are very solid on the anti-abortion stance.  No matter what. 

But, yes...if you make exception to a rule, then you don't support the rule.
...
2011-04-11 15:42:24
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6669|USA

War Man wrote:

tuckergustav wrote:

Also, if you are pro-life and have any exceptions...then you are pro-choice.
Then everyone is pro-choice by your logic.
I am not sure, do true pro lifers have exceptions?

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