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2011-03-21 23:37:57
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-a … um=twitter
https://i.imgur.com/vBjiF.jpg
Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai is due to name five or six areas of the country which will pass from control by foreign troops into Afghan hands.

The areas could account for about a fifth of the Afghan population.

One of the cities expected to be handed over is Lashkar Gah, the capital of the troubled Helmand province.

The handover is seen as a critical step in a transition of power, taking place before foreign troops end combat operations at the end of 2014.

Despite rising casualty numbers, the surge of extra American troops and tens of thousands of new Afghan police and soldiers has improved security in a number of areas in the country.

President Karzai is expected to announce as many as six places where Afghans will now be fully in charge, although foreign troops will still provide support.

In Lashkar Gah, thousands gathered in a stadium on Monday to watch a concert, celebrating the Afghan new year.

Unthinkable a year ago, this was a bold expression of confidence by the people in a city that now fees safer.
But this transition comes with a risk.

Although much improved, the quality of Afghan police and soldiers is patchy - and many people, both here in Helmand and elsewhere, fear that they will be unable to withstand, when it comes, a renewed summer offensive from the Taliban.
Soon enough? Too soon? Do you think the afghan army will be a relatively self sustainable police force by 2014?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 00:04:45
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6431|'straya
Honestly I doubt it, but I don't think the coalition countries will put up with staying there much longer. Everything i've heard from officers and NCOs who have served over there leads me to believe the ANA are incapable of carrying out the duties by themselves.
2011-03-22 00:26:23
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6941|BC, Canada
Probably gonna just go back to pretty much the same as it was.
2011-03-22 00:27:05
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6863|the dank(super) side of Oregon
who cares?   afghanistan will always be the wild west. 

From what I've seen and read about the afghan forces, half of them are taliban plants and the other half are too high to operate an AK.  Karzai will last only as long as we're paying for his private security merc army.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2011-03-22 00:39:02)

2011-03-22 00:29:06
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Reciprocity wrote:

who cares?   afghanistan will always be the wild west.
Who cares? The people who have friends and family deployed there.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 00:29:36
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Nic wrote:

Probably gonna just go back to pretty much the same as it was.
I assume you mean taliban controlled?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 00:43:54
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6863|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Kmar wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

who cares?   afghanistan will always be the wild west.
Who cares? The people who have friends and family deployed there.
I have friends and family deployed there.  Apparently, it's a stinking shithole not worth the rubble it's made from.
2011-03-22 00:48:29
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Reciprocity wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

who cares?   afghanistan will always be the wild west.
Who cares? The people who have friends and family deployed there.
I have friends and family deployed there.  Apparently, it's a stinking shithole not worth the rubble it's made from.
..and would you like to see them leave that shithole in the next year or two?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 00:54:29
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6863|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Kmar wrote:

..and would you like to see them leave that shithole in the next year or two?
tomorrow would be good for me.

my "who cares?" was in regards to whether the afghan forces are ready or not.  of course they're not, they're afghans.


I don't doubt that there are dedicated afghan soldiers who want nothing but best for their country, but they're few and far between.  I remember watching a documentary about some high-up afghan officer who really was dedicated to trying to improve his army and his country.  He was, of course, killed when his poorly maintained antique russian chopper crashed.  his replacement was some corrupt karzai crony.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2011-03-22 01:07:39)

2011-03-22 01:16:57
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

I'd actually venture to guess that most of them want what is best for their country. That is where they live, that is where they raise their children. The problem is the same as it is around much of the world. It only takes a few powerful people to really screw things up. Due to circumstances in the region, like poverty an lack of education, it is especially easy for the ill willed and self serving people to take control.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 01:23:14
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6431|'straya
Afghanistan is also very tribe-centric. The concept of a united nation is a fairly new one to them, priorities have always been centred around tribes and families, rather than any sense of national interest.
2011-03-22 01:27:14
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7058|Moscow, Russia

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Afghanistan is also very tribe-centric. The concept of a united nation is a fairly new one to them, priorities have always been centred around tribes and families, rather than any sense of national interest.
this. majority of afghani's have no notion whatsoever of what a country is outside of their tribe. expecting these people to build something orderly and centered around common national interests is kinda naive tbh.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-03-22 01:31:42
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

I'm sure they would want what is best for their country if the knew how it impacts their local village.

I wrote:

Due to circumstances in the region, like poverty and lack of education
The Mongol's really thought they had it going on as well.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 01:32:53
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6941|BC, Canada

Kmar wrote:

Nic wrote:

Probably gonna just go back to pretty much the same as it was.
I assume you mean taliban controlled?
Pretty much. I think it would take much longer for this enforced change to stick.

Last edited by Nic (2011-03-22 01:33:30)

2011-03-22 01:35:12
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7058|Moscow, Russia

Kmar wrote:

I'm sure they would want what is best for their country if the knew how it impacts their local village.
and who's going to explain it all to them? and what if they don't agree?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-03-22 01:38:05
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Nic wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Nic wrote:

Probably gonna just go back to pretty much the same as it was.
I assume you mean taliban controlled?
Pretty much. I think it would take much longer for this enforced change to stick.
True, the Taliban is more representative of an abstract philosophy than a physical opponent. The military really isn't geared to take out such intangibles.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 01:39:58
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

I'm sure they would want what is best for their country if the knew how it impacts their local village.
and who's going to explain it all to them? and what if they don't agree?
If you think i'm going to say that you can force education on grown adults you're wrong. It's a desire that has to naturally develop on it's own. You have to appreciate it to accept it.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 01:45:26
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7058|Moscow, Russia

Kmar wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

I'm sure they would want what is best for their country if the knew how it impacts their local village.
and who's going to explain it all to them? and what if they don't agree?
If you think i'm going to say that you can force education on grown adults you're wrong. It's a desire that has to naturally develop on it's own. You have to appreciate it to accept it.
you are forgetting one important thing: the time it usually takes for that stuff to "naturally develop". afghani's are still living in dark ages. do you remember what it took for "enlightened" west to transition out of that?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-03-22 02:02:20
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Shahter wrote:

and who's going to explain it all to them? and what if they don't agree?
If you think i'm going to say that you can force education on grown adults you're wrong. It's a desire that has to naturally develop on it's own. You have to appreciate it to accept it.
you are forgetting one important thing: the time it usually takes for that stuff to "naturally develop". afghani's are still living in dark ages. do you remember what it took for "enlightened" west to transition out of that?
I'm not forgetting that at all. I'm quite familiar with what it took for the west to emerge from the dark ages.. the plague, a huge decline in Europes population, and the subsequent prosperity that helped pave the way to the renaissance. Instead of toiling in the fields nonstop night and day, people were allowed to focus on art, culture, and philosophy. Those things that western civilization held in high esteem prior to the fall of rome.

I'm not here to paint a positive outcome in Afghanistan. My contention is, and always has been, that it is in the hands of the afgahni's.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 02:20:37
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5520|Cleveland, Ohio
yay vietnam yay!
2011-03-22 02:23:06
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7058|Moscow, Russia

Kmar wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

If you think i'm going to say that you can force education on grown adults you're wrong. It's a desire that has to naturally develop on it's own. You have to appreciate it to accept it.
you are forgetting one important thing: the time it usually takes for that stuff to "naturally develop". afghani's are still living in dark ages. do you remember what it took for "enlightened" west to transition out of that?
I'm not forgetting that at all. I'm quite familiar with what it took for the west to emerge from the dark ages.. the plague, a huge decline in Europes population, and the subsequent prosperity that helped pave the way to the renaissance. Instead of toiling in the fields nonstop night and day, people were allowed to focus on art, culture, and philosophy. Those things that western civilization held in high esteem prior to the fall of rome.

I'm not here to paint a positive outcome in Afghanistan. My contention is, and always has been, that it is in the hands of the afgahni's.
sure, yeah, whatever. afghani's are not about to focus on art, culture of philosophy. they are going to start eating each other as soon as they are free to do so - anybody with half a brain would understand this. the only way to make barbarians behave like human beings is to leave them no other choice - or, as you said, just wait. for several hundreds of years.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-03-22 02:24:53
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7058|Moscow, Russia

11 Bravo wrote:

yay vietnam yay!
go chechnya. (c)
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-03-22 02:26:30
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Shahter wrote:

you are forgetting one important thing: the time it usually takes for that stuff to "naturally develop". afghani's are still living in dark ages. do you remember what it took for "enlightened" west to transition out of that?
I'm not forgetting that at all. I'm quite familiar with what it took for the west to emerge from the dark ages.. the plague, a huge decline in Europes population, and the subsequent prosperity that helped pave the way to the renaissance. Instead of toiling in the fields nonstop night and day, people were allowed to focus on art, culture, and philosophy. Those things that western civilization held in high esteem prior to the fall of rome.

I'm not here to paint a positive outcome in Afghanistan. My contention is, and always has been, that it is in the hands of the afgahni's.
sure, yeah, whatever. afghani's are not about to focus on art, culture of philosophy. they are going to start eating each other as soon as they are free to do so - anybody with half a brain would understand this. the only way to make barbarians behave like human beings is to leave them no other choice - or, as you said, just wait. for several hundreds of years.
Of course not. Did you read the first sentence of the last line? Afghans do not enjoy the benefits of economic prosperity.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-03-22 02:49:48
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7058|Moscow, Russia

Kmar wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

I'm not forgetting that at all. I'm quite familiar with what it took for the west to emerge from the dark ages.. the plague, a huge decline in Europes population, and the subsequent prosperity that helped pave the way to the renaissance. Instead of toiling in the fields nonstop night and day, people were allowed to focus on art, culture, and philosophy. Those things that western civilization held in high esteem prior to the fall of rome.

I'm not here to paint a positive outcome in Afghanistan. My contention is, and always has been, that it is in the hands of the afgahni's.
sure, yeah, whatever. afghani's are not about to focus on art, culture of philosophy. they are going to start eating each other as soon as they are free to do so - anybody with half a brain would understand this. the only way to make barbarians behave like human beings is to leave them no other choice - or, as you said, just wait. for several hundreds of years.
Of course not. Did you read the first sentence of the last line? Afghans do not enjoyunderstand the benefits of economic prosperity and civilizational principals that would enable them those benefits.
fixed. afghani's are made from exactly the same stuff as you or me. their problem is that they are so far behind us culturally that they cannot possibly fathom all the goodies moderns civilization has in stock for them. now get back to the OP - what was your question?

Kmar wrote:

Soon enough? Too soon? Do you think the afghan army will be a relatively self sustainable police force by 2014?
the answer to this is "it's irrelevant, because you were doing it wrong from the beginning". these people do not appreciate anything you've done there, they will not follow any "karzhay" you place there to govern them, and they cannot sustain any kind of democracy. as soon as you leave they'll immediately be at each other's throat. again.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2011-03-22 03:12:57
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6883|132 and Bush

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Shahter wrote:

sure, yeah, whatever. afghani's are not about to focus on art, culture of philosophy. they are going to start eating each other as soon as they are free to do so - anybody with half a brain would understand this. the only way to make barbarians behave like human beings is to leave them no other choice - or, as you said, just wait. for several hundreds of years.
Of course not. Did you read the first sentence of the last line? Afghans do not enjoyunderstand the benefits of economic prosperity and civilizational principals that would enable them those benefits.
fixed. afghani's are made from exactly the same stuff as you or me. their problem is that they are so far behind us culturally that they cannot possibly fathom all the goodies moderns civilization has in stock for them. now get back to the OP - what was your question?
Where did I suggest that they where not "made from exactly the same stuff as you or me"? I know of their cultural defeciences and if you recall I said one of the driving forces of the renaissance was that "people were allowed to focus on art, culture, and philosophy". So it should be apparent even to a half brain that I'm aware of the cultural significance. Previously I also highlighted the importance of education ie "understanding the benefits of economic prosperity and civilizational principals that would enable them those benefits..".

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Soon enough? Too soon? Do you think the afghan army will be a relatively self sustainable police force by 2014?
the answer to this is "it's irrelevant, because you were doing it wrong from the beginning". these people do not appreciate anything you've done there, they will not follow any "karzhay" you place there to govern them, and they cannot sustain any kind of democracy. as soon as you leave they'll immediately be at each other's throat. again.
I don't disagree with this. They're not going to appreciate it because they themselves haven't invested in it. For reiterations sake.

Kmar wrote:

I'm not here to paint a positive outcome in Afghanistan. My contention is, and always has been, that it is in the hands of the afgahni's.
Xbone Stormsurgezz

 

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