BF2S Forums Why are we involved in Libya?

Kmar wrote:

As it should. It's a blatent power grab. He's effectively replaced the congress with the un.

No he hasn't, he's simply bypassed congress, not replaced them. The UN is irrelevant to Obama's decision making in this case.

Kmar wrote:

DonFck wrote:

But claiming that everything in the operation is American is very pompous. A lot is, most is, but not everything.

You're right

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-m … tional-war

<3 Jon Stewart.

OK, not taking into account the actions of the coalition forces (I.e. that the tomahawks were mostly all US), let's look at the sizes of the deployed forces instead:

Odyssey Dawn + Ellamy (according to wiki):

USA
USS Mount Whitney (LCC-20), the command ship of the United States Sixth Fleet
USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), a Wasp-class amphibious assault ship, with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit aboard
USS Ponce (LPD-15), an Austin-class amphibious transport dock
USS Barry (DDG-52), an Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer
USS Stout (DDG-55), another Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer
USS Providence (SSN-719), a Los Angeles-class nuclear attack submarine
USS Scranton (SSN-756), a second Los Angeles-class nuclear attack submarine
USS Florida (SSGN-728), an Ohio-class cruise missile submarine
EA-18G Growler electronic warfare aircraft operating out of NAS Sigonella and Aviano Air Base
Three × B-2 Spirit stealth bombers operating from Whiteman AFB.
Ten × F-15E Strike Eagle strike fighters operating out of RAF Lakenheath
Eight × F-16C Fighting Falcon multirole fighters from Spangdahlem Air Base started leaving for Aviano on 20 March
Two × HH-60 Pave Hawk combat search and rescue helicopters from RAF Lakenheath operating from USS Ponce (LPD-15).
EC-130H electronic warfare (communications jamming) aircraft
EC-130J psychological operations aircraft
Lockheed AC-130 Aerial Gunship
Global Hawk unmanned aerial surveillance vehicle
Lockheed U-2 Reconnaissance aircraft
Four × AV-8B Harrier II ground attack fighters from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, operating off of USS Kearsarge

Others (Canada+EU countries):
Six F-16AM 15MLU Falcon fighter jets operating from Araxos Air Base, Greece
BNS Narcis a Tripartite class minehunter
Six McDonnell Douglas CF-18 Hornet fighters fighter jets operating from Trapani Air Base, Italy
HMCS Charlottetown a Halifax class frigate
Six F-16AM 15MLU Falcon fighter jets operating from Sigonella Air Base, Italy
One C-130J-30 military transport aircraft (supporting the Danish contribution, but not under direct US Command)
Six F-16AM 15MLU Falcon operating from Souda Air Base, Crete
Two C-130J-30 supporting the Norwegian forces.
Four Tornado ECR SEAD planes operating from Trapani Air Base
Four F-16A 15ADF Falcon fighter as escort operating from Trapani Air Base
Two Tornado IDS in the air-to-air refueling role operating from Trapani Air Base (supporting the Italian contribution, but not under direct US Command)
Euro a Maestrale class frigate
Libra a Cassiopea class patrol vessel
Etna an Etna class auxiliary ship
Four EF-18AM Hornet fighters fighter jets operating from Decimomannu Air Base, Italy
One Boeing 707-331B(KC) tanker aircraft
One CN-235 MPA maritime surveillance plane
Méndez Núñez a F100 class frigate
Tramontana an Agosta class submarine
HMS Westminster (F237), a Type 23 frigate
HMS Cumberland (F85), a Type 22 frigate
2 × Lynx Mk.8 helicopters
HMS Triumph (S93), a Trafalgar-class submarine
Joint Force Air Component Headquarters Headquarters 907 Expeditionary Air Wing at RAF Akrotiri
10 × Typhoon multirole fighters from RAF Coningsby and RAF Leuchars,[6] deployed to Headquarters 906 Expeditionary Air Wing at Gioia del Colle Air Base
4 × Tornado GR4 interdictor/strike aircraft from RAF Marham
3 × Sentry AEW.1 AWACS aircraft
A Nimrod R1 signals intelligence aircraft
A Sentinel R1 airborne standoff radar aircraft from RAF Waddington
VC10 air-to-air refuelling tankers from RAF Brize Norton
TriStar K1 air-to-air refuelling tankers from RAF Brize Norton

So it is clear that the USA as a single country has brought in a huge amount of gear. But by no means, as you can see from the list of other involved forces, is this what Ron Paul says it is.

Dilbert_X wrote:

he's simply bypassed congress, not replaced them. The UN is irrelevant to Obama's decision making in this case.

This is not started by the US, it's started by the UN. If a decision is made that the US pulls out, the rest of the coalition forces can continue.

This just in: NATO is taking over leadership of the operation.

DonFck wrote:

<3 Jon Stewart.

OK, not taking into account the actions of the coalition forces (I.e. that the tomahawks were mostly all US), let's look at the sizes of the deployed forces instead:

Odyssey Dawn + Ellamy (according to wiki):

USA
USS Mount Whitney (LCC-20), the command ship of the United States Sixth Fleet
USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), a Wasp-class amphibious assault ship, with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit aboard
USS Ponce (LPD-15), an Austin-class amphibious transport dock
USS Barry (DDG-52), an Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer
USS Stout (DDG-55), another Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer
USS Providence (SSN-719), a Los Angeles-class nuclear attack submarine
USS Scranton (SSN-756), a second Los Angeles-class nuclear attack submarine
USS Florida (SSGN-728), an Ohio-class cruise missile submarine
EA-18G Growler electronic warfare aircraft operating out of NAS Sigonella and Aviano Air Base
Three × B-2 Spirit stealth bombers operating from Whiteman AFB.
Ten × F-15E Strike Eagle strike fighters operating out of RAF Lakenheath
Eight × F-16C Fighting Falcon multirole fighters from Spangdahlem Air Base started leaving for Aviano on 20 March
Two × HH-60 Pave Hawk combat search and rescue helicopters from RAF Lakenheath operating from USS Ponce (LPD-15).
EC-130H electronic warfare (communications jamming) aircraft
EC-130J psychological operations aircraft
Lockheed AC-130 Aerial Gunship
Global Hawk unmanned aerial surveillance vehicle
Lockheed U-2 Reconnaissance aircraft
Four × AV-8B Harrier II ground attack fighters from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, operating off of USS Kearsarge

Others (Canada+EU countries):
Six F-16AM 15MLU Falcon fighter jets operating from Araxos Air Base, Greece
BNS Narcis a Tripartite class minehunter
Six McDonnell Douglas CF-18 Hornet fighters fighter jets operating from Trapani Air Base, Italy
HMCS Charlottetown a Halifax class frigate
Six F-16AM 15MLU Falcon fighter jets operating from Sigonella Air Base, Italy
One C-130J-30 military transport aircraft (supporting the Danish contribution, but not under direct US Command)
Six F-16AM 15MLU Falcon operating from Souda Air Base, Crete
Two C-130J-30 supporting the Norwegian forces.
Four Tornado ECR SEAD planes operating from Trapani Air Base
Four F-16A 15ADF Falcon fighter as escort operating from Trapani Air Base
Two Tornado IDS in the air-to-air refueling role operating from Trapani Air Base (supporting the Italian contribution, but not under direct US Command)
Euro a Maestrale class frigate
Libra a Cassiopea class patrol vessel
Etna an Etna class auxiliary ship
Four EF-18AM Hornet fighters fighter jets operating from Decimomannu Air Base, Italy
One Boeing 707-331B(KC) tanker aircraft
One CN-235 MPA maritime surveillance plane
Méndez Núñez a F100 class frigate
Tramontana an Agosta class submarine
HMS Westminster (F237), a Type 23 frigate
HMS Cumberland (F85), a Type 22 frigate
2 × Lynx Mk.8 helicopters
HMS Triumph (S93), a Trafalgar-class submarine
Joint Force Air Component Headquarters Headquarters 907 Expeditionary Air Wing at RAF Akrotiri
10 × Typhoon multirole fighters from RAF Coningsby and RAF Leuchars,[6] deployed to Headquarters 906 Expeditionary Air Wing at Gioia del Colle Air Base
4 × Tornado GR4 interdictor/strike aircraft from RAF Marham
3 × Sentry AEW.1 AWACS aircraft
A Nimrod R1 signals intelligence aircraft
A Sentinel R1 airborne standoff radar aircraft from RAF Waddington
VC10 air-to-air refuelling tankers from RAF Brize Norton
TriStar K1 air-to-air refuelling tankers from RAF Brize Norton

So it is clear that the USA as a single country has brought in a huge amount of gear. But by no means, as you can see from the list of other involved forces, is this what Ron Paul says it is.

This, wasn't dick measuring but stating that it's not as bad as the people in the US make it out to be.

Kmar wrote:

They'll ship him back to Kenya.

Congress will just have his action repealed. The president is allowed to authorize military force on his own if there is an immediate threat. The reason that provision was put into the constitution is in case the US is invaded or attacked without warning (a sneak attack). In a circumstance like that there must be swift action and it is assumed Congress would not have time to vote. However, military action is only possible for 30 days.. by that time congress is expected to vote.

So legally he can get away with it? Then why were people complaining about the constitution

Last edited by Shocking (2011-03-23 04:57:59)

Donfck wrote:

This is not started by the US, it's started by the UN. If a decision is made that the US pulls out, the rest of the coalition forces can continue.

Obama took a unilateral decision to get involved, the UN didn't force his hand.

So legally he can get away with it? Then why were people complaining about the constitution.

It will be very funny seeing the same people who have been so keen recently to impose 'pax americana' and regime change on the ME baying for Obama's blood for actually going ahead and doing it.

Funny also that after actually really invading Iraq to impose regime change the same people are jumping up and down over some cruise missiles and bombing runs.

These imbeciles are dangerous and funny at the same time. I'm sure the Germans have a word for that, like schadenfreude.

Also, I wouldn't mind if we sent E.g. 6-10 F-18:s. To patrol, not attack.

Dilbert_X wrote:

In domestic terms he has bypassed congress.

In the most important terms he has bypassed congress. He also insisted that the arab league weigh in. They did.

Kmar wrote:

yea i figured..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQmLyp6 … r_embedded

Paul wrote:

Congressman Ron Paul comments on how President Obama’s actions on Libya are violating the Constitution, ceding authority and sovereignty to the United Nations, and weakening the United States. Action by the American people to return government to its constitutional limits is critical if we are to change our course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qm9U3X3EU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3coOk1bL … re=related

The best part about Ron Paul is his consistency.

I'm sure Obama checks in with a lot of people, does that mean congress is moot?

Vietnam was carpet-bombed, napalmed and agent-oranged, much of the same happened to Laos.

How were their hands tied exactly?

In hindsight most of the interventions from end 2nd WW to 9/11 were productive, as in, they usually achieved the set goal.

Jay wrote:

Those damn hippy war protesters precluded them from escalating the war even further. They could've won damnit! It would've meant completely depopulating Southeast Asia but they would've won!

Mcarthur was insane, good thing he didn't get his way.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-03-23 05:54:07)

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It's called SEAD: suppression of enemy air defenses. C2 nodes, radars, and air defense sites are common and understood targets when executing that type of mission, which is a subset of DCA: defensive counter-air (ie, NFZ operations).

I don't care how many acronyms you come up with, the basic doctrine is bullshit.

So, to get back to your illogical argument: If Russia were operating a NFZ over the US, then yes, they would need to execute SEAD on our C2 nodes, radars, and air defense sites to proper execute the NFZ.

Never mind no-fly zones, Russia is currently under threat from US nukes, under your theory of pre-emptive self-defense they have the right to suppress your 'defense' network - missile sites, command and control centres, communications networks etc.

They have the "right", so to speak, but launching a strike isn't in their national self-interest, seeing as they'd be similarly destroyed. You can't legitimately equate enforcing a no-fly zone with a prospective nuclear war.

Shocking wrote:

In hindsight most of the interventions from end 2nd WW to 9/11 were productive, as in, they usually achieved the set goal.

Jay wrote:

Those damn hippy war protesters precluded them from escalating the war even further. They could've won damnit! It would've meant completely depopulating Southeast Asia but they would've won!

Mcarthur was insane, good thing he didn't get his way.

Wrong war.

Last edited by nukchebi0 (2011-03-23 07:01:47)