BF2S Forums Why are we involved in Libya?

Turquoise wrote:

Removing Gadhafi won't change a whole lot other than stabilizing Libya.  The rebels may or may not allow for a transition toward a democratic government, and we may or may not choose to support this transition.

Whatever happens, oil deals will be made, and people will die.

I don't understand why certain people are defending Gadhafi, but at the same time, I don't particularly care what happens to the people of Libya either.

Remember that we supported Mubarak for near 40 years before the revolution started, + most other dictators in the ME for that matter?

If anything I see this as us trying to save face. I don't know what will happen in Libya after Gadaffi is gone, but whatever the case, us not intervening would have had much worse consequences overall. Furthermore, he was unpredictable and people were probably wanting to get rid of him for a long time.

Macbeth wrote:

I think invading Iraq in 03 was stupid and I think this thing in Libya is also stupid. I don't care how many of their own people they killed, it's not our problem.

It would seem we are the minority.

Problems don't disappear if you ignore them.

Then again, this is more a European problem than an American one, don't see why you would oppose Iraq though.

Turquoise wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

ya gadaffy is slaughtering his people ya!!!!

proof?

oh well this guy says so.

oh ok.  attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/ … piracy.jpg

can you show me any concrete proof of genocide?

Unless the people of Libya request assistance from foreign powers, I think we should stick to our own business.

The UN is such a retarded organisation meddling with other countries' business. If there's a genocide then let foreign countries decide for themselves if it's their moral responsibility to assist that nation, and let charity organisations do their job with food and whatnot. We don't need the UN, piss off.

I hadn't realized this action was going against our Constitution.

The Libyans requested a no-fly zone? Good for them, now whoever wants to step up can take on that task.

If the Constitution doesn't allow our intervention then we should GTFO.

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Unless the people of Libya request assistance from foreign powers, I think we should stick to our own business.

The UN is such a retarded organisation meddling with other countries' business. If there's a genocide then let foreign countries decide for themselves if it's their moral responsibility to assist that nation, and let charity organisations do their job with food and whatnot. We don't need the UN, piss off.

I hadn't realized this action was going against our Constitution.

So shifty, every time a rebel group requests assistance we should grant it? If not, where do you draw the line?

Can I go to the UN and request they overthrow Obama for me and install me as King?

-Sh1fty- wrote:

What kind of a question is that Jay? Unless it's to protect American interest we shouldn't get involved militarily.

It's in my interest and I am an American.

Jay wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

What kind of a question is that Jay? Unless it's to protect American interest we shouldn't get involved militarily.

It's in my interest and I am an American.

Are you talking about Libya? Then tell me how they threaten the U.S. and if it's a valid excuse to blow shit up in their country.

Macbeth wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

I hadn't realized this action was going against our Constitution.

What part? Name the exact part it violates.

the Swiss have a Constitution?

burnzz wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

I hadn't realized this action was going against our Constitution.

What part? Name the exact part it violates.

the Swiss have a Constitution?

Swiss Federal Constitution
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The Federal Constitution of 18 April 1999 (German: Bundesverfassung der Schweizerischen Eidgenossenschaft; French: Constitution fédérale de la Confédération suisse; Italian: Costituzione federale della Confederazione Svizzera; Romansh: Constituziun federala da la Confederaziun svizra) is the third and current federal constitution of Switzerland. It establishes the Swiss Confederation as a federal republic of 26 cantons (states), contains a catalogue of individual and popular rights (including the right to call for popular referenda on federal laws and constitutional amendments), delineates the responsibilities of the cantons and the Confederation and establishes the federal authorities of government.

The Constitution was adopted by popular vote on 18 April 1999. It replaced the prior federal constitution of 1874, which it was intended to bring up to date without changing it in substance.
Contents

    * 1 History
    * 2 Constitutional provisions
          o 2.1 Preamble and Title 1
          o 2.2 Title 2: Fundamental Rights, Civil Rights and Social Goals
    * 3 References
    * 4 External links

History
See also: History of Switzerland
Memorial page to mark the revision of the federal constitution of 1874, featuring the motto "Einer für alle, alle für einen" (by E. Conrad, lithography on paper)

The groundwork for today's Swiss Constitution was laid with the promulgation of the Constitution of 12 September 1848, which was influenced by the ideas of the French Revolution. This constitution provided for the cantons' sovereignty, as long as this did not impinge on the Federal Constitution. This constitution was created in response to a 27-day civil war in Switzerland, the Sonderbundskrieg.

The Constitution of 1848 was partly revised in 1866, and wholly revised in 1874. This latter constitutional change introduced the referendum at the federal level. Beginning in 1891, the constitution contained the "right of initiative", under which a certain number of voters could make a request to amend a constitutional article, or even to introduce a new article into the constitution. Thus, partial revisions of the constitution could be made any time.

The Federal Constitution was wholly revised for the second time in the 1990s, and the new version was approved by popular and cantonal vote on 18 April 1999. It replaces the constitution of 29 May 1874, and it contains nine fundamental rights which up until then had only been discussed and debated in the Federal Court. It came into force on 1 January 2000.

Owing to constitutional initiatives and counterproposals, the Swiss Constitution is subject to continual changes.
Constitutional provisions
Swiss Confederation
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This article is part of the series:
Federal Constitution of 18 April 1999
Text of the Constitution
Preamble and Title 1
General Provisions
Title 2
Fundamental Rights, Civil Rights and Social Goals
Title 3
Confederation, Cantons, and Municipalities
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People and Cantons
Title 5
Federal Authorities
Title 6
Revision of the Federal Constitution and Temporal Provisions

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Preamble and Title 1
Main article: Preamble and Title 1 of the Swiss Federal Constitution

The preamble and the first title of the Constitution determine the general outlines of Switzerland as a democratic federal republic of 26 cantons governed by the rule of law.

The preamble opens with a solemn invocation of God in continuance of Swiss constitutional tradition. It is a mandate to the State authorities by the Swiss people and cantons, as the Confederation's constituent powers, to adhere to the values listed in the preamble, which include "liberty and democracy, independence and peace in solidarity and openness towards the world".

The general provisions contained in Title 1 (articles 1–6) define the characteristic traits of the Swiss state on all of its three levels of authority: federal, cantonal and municipal. They contain an enumeration of the constituent Cantons, affirm Cantonal sovereignty within the bounds of the Constitution and list the national languages – German, French, Italian and Romansh. They also commit the State to the principles of obedience to law, proportionality, good faith and respect for international law, before closing with a reference to individual responsibility.
Title 2: Fundamental Rights, Civil Rights and Social Goals
Main article: Title 2 of the Swiss Federal Constitution
See also: Human rights in Switzerland

Title 2 contains the Constitution's bill of rights. The 1874 constitution contained only a limited number of fundamental rights, and some of them grew less significant as the 20th century wore on, such as the right to a decent burial guaranteed in article 53 of the old constitution. In consequence, the Swiss Federal Supreme Court's extensive case law developed an array of implicit or "unwritten" fundamental rights, drawing upon the case law of the European Court of Human Rights and applying the fundamental rights guaranteed in the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), which Switzerland ratified in 1974.

In the course of the 1999 constitutional revision, the Federal Assembly decided to codify that case law in the form of a comprehensive bill of rights, which is substantially congruent with the rights guaranteed in the ECHR, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Title 2 also covers the essential rules on the acquisition of Swiss citizenship and of the exercise of political rights. Furthermore, it contains a number of not directly enforceable "social goals" which the state shall strive to ensure, including the availability of social security, health care and housing.
References

    * Bernhard Ehrenzeller, Philipp Mastronardi, Rainer J. Schweizer, Klaus A. Vallender (eds.) (2002). Die schweizerische Bundesverfassung, Kommentar. ISBN 3-905455-70-6.  (German). Cited as Ehrenzeller.
    * Federal Constitution in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland.

External links
    English Wikisource has original text related to this article:
1999 Constitution

    * Authoritative German, French and Italian texts of the Swiss Federal Constitution.
    * Federal Constitution webpage provided by the Federal Authorities of the Swiss Confederation; includes versions of the Constitution in German, French, Italian, and Rhaeto-Romanic (Romansh) as well as non-authoritative translations of the Constitution in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Japanese and Nepalese.

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lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

I honestly believe we would have done a better job if it were not for the liberal opposition trying to derail any and all efforts toward progress by doing the shit they did, Abu Ghriab is a perfect example.

Wait, so you're cool with what they did?

No I didn't say that, I said by exploiting every failure, and torpedoing every success, with rhetoric of failure, they have caused the focus of the war to shift from a swift and decisive victory that all Americans could get behind, to strife and turmoil that caused politicians to worry about their jobs more than the worrying about the troops in harms way.

Uhh, I'd much rather not have a unified front, and for the people to not be blinded by patriotism. What you're proposing is that we turn a blind eye to anything negative and write politicians a blank check for whatever powers they desire. If you don't want opposition to your wars then conduct them right. Instead, they try to get away with as much shit as they can and when it gets found out it becomes 1000000x the story that it would've originally been. It's not the medias fault for reporting on Abu Ghraib, it's the fault of the MPs that committed the crimes in the first place.

I've actually been to Abu Ghraib. It was a mud filled shithole surrounded by 20 foot high walls with a prison compound in the middle that looked eerily like an American high school. All you would hear echoing all over the camp was the sound of the prisoners wailing from inside their cells at anyone that walked by. "Fuck you American" "I'm innocent American" "I want to go home" etc. The MPs clearly cracked under the pressure. That doesn't excuse their behavior.

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

No I didn't say that, I said by exploiting every failure, and torpedoing every success, with rhetoric of failure, they have caused the focus of the war to shift from a swift and decisive victory that all Americans could get behind, to strife and turmoil that caused politicians to worry about their jobs more than the worrying about the troops in harms way.

Uhh, I'd much rather not have a unified front, and for the people to not be blinded by patriotism. What you're proposing is that we turn a blind eye to anything negative and write politicians a blank check for whatever powers they desire. If you don't want opposition to your wars then conduct them right. Instead, they try to get away with as much shit as they can and when it gets found out it becomes 1000000x the story that it would've originally been. It's not the medias fault for reporting on Abu Ghraib, it's the fault of the MPs that committed the crimes in the first place.

I've actually been to Abu Ghraib. It was a mud filled shithole surrounded by 20 foot high walls with a prison compound in the middle that looked eerily like an American high school. All you would hear echoing all over the camp was the sound of the prisoners wailing from inside their cells at anyone that walked by. "Fuck you American" "I'm innocent American" "I want to go home" etc. The MPs clearly cracked under the pressure. That doesn't excuse their behavior.

I want that, if the decision to go to war has been made, that all politics  are set aside in favor of supporting the troops and the mission. ESPECIALLY since all those assholes that try to torpedo the successes voted for war in the first place.

Then you are a bigger moron than I ever imagined.

Yeah, start a war and you should get free reign and protection from all dissent. You, who constantly tout his reverence for the Constitution, would trample the first amendment. You, the asshole who goes out of his way to start arguments on an internet message board, would have people silenced who disagree with the conduct of a war. That's just rich lowing.