Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England
In the 1980’s the United States funded Iraq’s Saddam Hussein yet considered Palestine’s Yasser Arafat and Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi terrorists. And they were. But so was Saddam, who at that time was terrorizing his own people, gassing Iraqi Kurds while receiving America’s financial and political support. In the 1990’s, the US declared Hussein a menace and we apparently changed our mind about Arafat, who was even invited to the White House to shake hands with Bill Clinton. In the 2000’s George W. Bush went back to calling Arafat a terrorist, went to war with Saddam, who we also began calling a terrorist, but made amends with Gaddafi by taking Libya off our official list of state sponsors of terror and sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to shake Gaddafi’s hand. Mind you, this is the same Libyan dictator that Ronald Reagan once called the “mad dog of the Middle East” and who was responsible for blowing up an airplane full of American school kids over Lockerbie Scotland in 1988. If the above history of the US’s overseas alliances and antagonisms sounds nonsensical or perhaps even immoral, that’s because, well, it is. Welcome to American foreign policy. Like Egypt before it a few weeks ago, as Libya descends into chaos the eyes of the world now look to America to see what we will do. Why? Because the rest of the world is accustomed to the US always doing something. In fact, no matter how much our constant involvement becomes obviously counterproductive or our actions come back to haunt us in the most damaging ways imaginable, the so called “experts” in Washington, DC continue to tell us we must still be involved heavily in the Middle East and around the globe, funding dictators and supporting terrorists, while also toppling the same dictators and fighting the same terrorists, as determined by which decade we find ourselves in or which president sits in the White House. For example, in the 1980’s it was the official policy of the State Department to encourage radical jihad in Afghanistan to undermine the Soviets. Today, we find ourselves in a decade long war in Afghanistan fighting against the same radical jihadists we once encouraged and helped fund. Such insanity is what our leaders continue to advocate as a reasonable and necessary foreign policy. To suggest that we should just give up these ever-changing entanglements as a practical matter is disparaged as “isolationist” and therefore unfathomable, the experts tell us. The term “isolationism” is much like the word “racism,” in that it is an accusatory term designed specifically to shut down debate before it begins. As the Tea Party is well aware, if you question Obama you are “racist.” Likewise, if you question US foreign policy you are an “isolationist.” Nobody wants to attempt to reason with a racist or an isolationist, and indeed to criticize our insane foreign policy is the quickest way to invite this discussion-ending disparagement. Luckily, at least at the moment, a majority of Americans don’t appear to be as insane as their rulers. According to pollster Scott Rasmussen, his most recent data reveals that “most Americans (67%) say the United States should leave the situation in the Arab countries alone. Just 17% say the United States should get more directly involved in the political situation there, but another 17% are not sure.” A Reuters poll in January produced similar results, showing that 73% of Americans support eliminating all foreign aid. So are Americans now “isolationist?” Or in being somewhat isolated from the special interests and entrenched, status quo politics that dominates Washington, do Americans see our involvement in foreign affairs in more clear and common-sense terms than our political class is even capable of? The very notion that it is somehow “isolationist” to not endlessly support dictators and terrorists throughout the Middle East with financial, political and even military aid is to say that virtually every other nation on earth is also “isolationist.” It also ignores the fact that America is not a normal nation, or at least hasn’t been for a long time. In fact, in terms of its scope alone, US foreign policy is arguably the most abnormal in history. Not even the empires of Rome and Great Britain assumed that virtually any conflict around the globe necessarily affected the interests of Romans or Brits. The second edition of the “Encyclopedia of American Foreign Policy” (2001) described this new, almost perverse concept of America’s “national interest” as the definition was being expanded even during the Vietnam era: “By the 1960s the American national interest was being defined so globally that hardly a sparrow could fall anywhere on earth without the U.S. government wanting to know why, to know whether the sparrow had jumped or been pushed, and, if pushed, to know whether the pusher wore scarlet plumage. Somewhere or other, sooner or later, the United States was bound to find itself defending a regime so weak, corrupt, or unpopular… as to be indefensible at any reasonable cost.” The world wondered how the US would approach the uprising in Egypt because we had historically supported the dictator Egyptians were rising against. The world now wonders how the US might approach the uprising in Libya because we were supporting the dictator Libyans now rise against as late as last week. This constant support of highly questionable governments for even more highly questionable reasons has, and will continue to do us more harm than good no matter how much the “experts” say otherwise. And the longer the political class continues to isolate itself from common sense—the longer America will suffer for it.
I am an isolationist. I want nothing to do with the rest of the world outside of trade. Most Americans feel the same way.

So fuck off Europe. We all left for a reason.

edit - phone destroyed the formatting

Last edited by Jay (2011-03-19 15:08:47)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6258|...
in the 1980’s it was the official policy of the State Department to encourage radical jihad in Afghanistan to undermine the Soviets. Today, we find ourselves in a decade long war in Afghanistan fighting against the same radical jihadists we once encouraged and helped fund.
You know that this is not exactly true, though?

Ignoring 9/11 would not have made it go away, and not funding the mujahedeen may have been irrelevant in regards to that event.

I would agree with most of the post though.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-03-19 15:20:35)

inane little opines
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6258|...
Pretty much 90% of the problems we have today are because of the zeal the US displayed in fighting communism.
inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

Shocking wrote:

in the 1980’s it was the official policy of the State Department to encourage radical jihad in Afghanistan to undermine the Soviets. Today, we find ourselves in a decade long war in Afghanistan fighting against the same radical jihadists we once encouraged and helped fund.
You know that this is not exactly true, though?

Ignoring 9/11 would not have made it go away, and not funding the mujahedeen may have been irrelevant in regards to that event.

I would agree with most of the post though.
Yes, the history in the op ed is pretty awful. I simply like the sentiment.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6407|'straya
American foreign policy took up the role of policing the world and communism. No one to blame but yourselves.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6840|SE London

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

American foreign policy took up the role of policing the world and communism. No one to blame but yourselves.
Quite so.

With Communism there was a genuine global threat. These days there isn't, but the US haven't kicked the habbit of playing global policeman - which was once an important role, but now isn't.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio

Jay wrote:

I am an isolationist. I want nothing to do with the rest of the world outside of trade. Most Americans feel the same way.
agree with all of this

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2011-03-19 15:58:04)

-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5732|Ventura, California

11 Bravo wrote:

Jay wrote:

I am an isolationist. I want nothing to do with the rest of the world outside of trade. Most Americans feel the same way.
agree with all of this
seconded

Unless there's a genocide or a direct threat to national security we should piss off militarily.

Sidenote. F**k the UN, they're so useless.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio
well maybe one day we will get there.  i mean now more people support gay marriage then ever before for example.  slowly our generation can take back what the baby boomers and wwii gen fucked up.
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5732|Ventura, California
What did they mess up?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

-Sh1fty- wrote:

What did they mess up?
The entire fucking country?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio

-Sh1fty- wrote:

What did they mess up?
foreign policy, budget, jobs, housing, etc

you know...small stuff
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5732|Ventura, California
Let me rephrase that. How did they mess up the foreign policy, budget, jobs, housing, and more? What's the problem with those subjects that is directly their fault?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England
You actually deserve a better answer than that. The baby boomers have consistently underpaid on taxes which is why our national debt is so large. This is about to get worse as they retire. Our debt today is nothing like it will be in twenty years. We're absolutely fucked.

They've sent our troops off to die in foreign wars for the past century for no reason whatsoever. They've fucked up the nation socially by passing socialist programs that they didn't pay for while simultaneously being ass backwards with shit like the defense of marriage act. This country is good in a lot of ways shifty, but it's also completely fucked up in many others.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6729
isolationism is pretty much impossible now. utopian.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio

Uzique wrote:

isolationism is pretty much impossible now. utopian.
not really.  ill accept close enough
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5732|Ventura, California
I wish there was some way to find out where every dime goes. I would like to know because I want to make sure my cash goes to the right places. I could make better voting decisions if I knew what each politician would do with my money.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6729

11 Bravo wrote:

Uzique wrote:

isolationism is pretty much impossible now. utopian.
not really.  ill accept close enough
so i guess if you want isolationism, you also want china, japan, europe and the middle-east to all pull their $$$ out of the US system

have fun with that
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6840|SE London

Jay wrote:

You actually deserve a better answer than that. The baby boomers have consistently underpaid on taxes which is why our national debt is so large. This is about to get worse as they retire. Our debt today is nothing like it will be in twenty years. We're absolutely fucked.

They've sent our troops off to die in foreign wars for the past century for no reason whatsoever. They've fucked up the nation socially by passing socialist programs that they didn't pay for while simultaneously being ass backwards with shit like the defense of marriage act. This country is good in a lot of ways shifty, but it's also completely fucked up in many others.
This!

It's not just the US, but I think the US has been harder hit than most other places by the bastard baby boomers and all their leeching of the economy.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio

-Sh1fty- wrote:

I wish there was some way to find out where every dime goes. I would like to know because I want to make sure my cash goes to the right places. I could make better voting decisions if I knew what each politician would do with my money.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 … tor-votes/
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio

Uzique wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Uzique wrote:

isolationism is pretty much impossible now. utopian.
not really.  ill accept close enough
so i guess if you want isolationism, you also want china, japan, europe and the middle-east to all pull their $$$ out of the US system

have fun with that
no i prefer brazils approach
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6258|...
I consider the baby boomers to quite possibly take the prize as being the worst, most short sighted people in government ever. This holds true for all of Europe as well.
inane little opines
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5732|Ventura, California
Just to refresh my memory. Baby-boomers are all the post-WW2 children from the returning veterans right?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6729
i don't quite understand why a bunch of teenagers are talking smack about baby boomers (read: dayarath) as if they've done anything fucking more conducive to the benefit of society.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6258|...
Bismarck, imo, was the best politician/leader to have ever lived. Not exactly isolationist but his foreign policy record was perfect.

Uzique wrote:

i don't quite understand why a bunch of teenagers are talking smack about baby boomers (read: dayarath) as if they've done anything fucking more conducive to the benefit of society.
You're one to talk, what do you have - 2 years on me? 3?

Yes I do actually talk smack because when I'm looking at history all I can think of is how could they possibly fuck up this much? + the only thing they seem to be concerned with is their own wellbeing, half my family consisting out of boomers.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-03-19 16:40:03)

inane little opines

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