i tried telling him that, when he was still bradt3hleader . . .
Aside from what I said earlier, honor killings are also very similar to female circumcision. It's another cultural thing that Islam gets blamed for.Macbeth wrote:
As far as honor killings go it's not something that only happens in Islamic cultures or happens all over the Islamic world. It's mostly a cultural thing.
Honor killings have been reported to still be happening in black tribal non-Islamic cultures in Africa. I also read an article before that mentioned honor killings were occurring in Indochina.
I remember reading Timur's personal account of his invasion of India. He mentioned that after he had conquered the city of Delhi the Hindu men there waited until night before they rounded up their own families, locked them in their homes, and set them on fire before going out to attack Timur's Muslim soldiers. I also remember reading how during the India-Pakistan war in the 60's, Sikh's were having their daughters commit suicide so that they wouldn't be defiled by Muslim insurgents.
As far as I know honor killings don't occur in Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) or any of the other Muslim communities in those southeast Asia islands.
So yeah honor killings aren't just a "Muslim" thing. The only reason this story even got any attention is because it was Muslims. Men kill their wives and girlfriends all the time in this country.
Female circumcision was recorded to be occurring back in ancient Egypt long before the Arab-Muslim invasions. It now only occurs in black central Africa among both non-Islamic and Islamic black Africans. Neither the Bible nor the Quran even mention the practice at all. Yet people still attribute it to Islam and use it as an example of why Islam sucks despite it being a purely cultural thing.
Don't get me wrong I hate Islam, the same way I hate Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion but there are valid arguments against them and then there aren't valid arguments...
Using labels is meek minded? What the heck is your problem? It's not the people I dislike, but liberalism itself. It's their ideas that are silly.UnkleRukus wrote:
This has nothing to do with anyone's political mindset. I despise the political groupings, I think they are idiotic and useless just like you. Labels for the meek minded. This has to do with you agreeing with someone you don't even know and posting no supporting information on a topic you know nothing about.
I know plenty of friendly Muslims too, and I also know plenty of unfriendly Muslims. The issue at hand is the Koran's condoning of honor killings. I never said all Muslims act that way so don't pretend I did.UnkleRukus wrote:
Islam is not a bad religion and neither are most of it's participants. I've met more friendly and awesome Muslims then I have Christians. Frankly people like you sicken me, you're brainwashed, ignorant and worthless.
"Open your goddamn eyes" is a pretty meaningless term. Your ideas of the world aren't the same as other peoples. You're essentially say you want me to see things your way, since, obviously according to you that's the only correct way to view the world, or at least that's the impression you give with your lousy attitude.UnkleRukus wrote:
Lowing is a smart man but he too needs to realize a few things. You however aren't smart, and you will never be smart unless you open your goddamn eyes to this world and stop seeing the generalizations because you will never be a success in life. I would seriously continue with this but it would be a broken fucking record, EG. ISLAM IS BAD, SHIFTY IS STUPID, LOWING IS A DUMB CONSERVATIVE, X IS A Y FAG.
That's just your opinion, again. Other people might also dislike it, but some people like it. If you dislike then you could simply leave. Nobody is asking your to stay here and be a rude prick.UnkleRukus wrote:
Goddamn, this whole section could use a good deletion with the amount of tripe in it. The only worthwhile threads are the book club, science and architecture threads.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
If you have to cut up someone's post and reply to it line by line then, sorry, you lost the argument.
Last edited by Macbeth (2011-03-10 17:46:10)
You're a laugh.UnkleRukus wrote:
Notice, whenever someone calls shifty out he just logs off like a little bitch.
I come onto bf2s, post a few things and log off. Then go play games (L4D2) or do homework. Later I come back on and see what people have replied. Apparently though, not staying on BF2s 24/7 during a "Debate" qualifies me as a little bitch. I'm sorry, I didn't realize how pathetic you are.
I can apply the same fail-logic as you.
"Notice, whenever Rukus gets called out he just logs off like a little bitch!"
Well where are you Rukus? Could you possibly have ANYTHING else to do than BF2s? I guess you can but not myself huh? Being an intelligent person is one thing but being an asshole too doesn't exactly make you look any better.
Last edited by -Sh1fty- (2011-03-10 17:55:23)
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
I'm keeping things organized.Macbeth wrote:
If you have to cut up someone's post and reply to it line by line then, sorry, you lost the argument.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Argument was his Islamic culture allows for this. That is a fact.dayarath wrote:
This is quite possibly the weakest example you could've brought up to try and connect it to Islam. Firstly, the killing in itself was probably not motivated by religion (or even partly) as he let two of his ex-wives get off without resorting to killing them. Secondly, even in the most oppressive of Islamic societies it's not done to behead your wife because of a disagreement. It's not an acceptable treatment of your wife, nevermind the fact that he completely bypasses the sharia court which is central in each radical islamic community. (Muhammad supposedly said, before he died - to treat your wife with respect, which is in the Quran as well).
Lastly, the quotations from the quran that you post are completely irrelevant because similar ones occur in the texts of any religion - if we're going to argue like that you could just as easily connect every murder committed by a supposedly Christian person to their religion.
You asked for quotes from Islam that supported this behavior, they were provided, now you say it doesn't count?
Then the argument becomes some tribes in Afghanistan dos this shit as well, Irrelevant. Somehow I guess this is supposed to excuse Islamic cultures for doing it.
Islam is the problem child religion in the world today, not Christianity, or Hindus, or the fuckin Buddhists. Islam. That is also a fact.
There is simply no amount of redirection, denial, dismissal, or insults that is going to change any of those facts.
I said guess what religion he was, did anyone guess wrong? Then I said this sort of shit would not have been prosecuted in many Islamic nations. Nothing more nothing less. the rest of you took off all over the spectrum trying to dismiss this as bee stings, and crime of passion.Poseidon wrote:
Still waiting for proof that this happens in western Islamic cultures on a large scale and that this specific killing was an "honor killing" and not just a murder.
So what does any of that have to do with proving that he did this because of his religion?lowing wrote:
I said guess what religion he was, did anyone guess wrong? Then I said this sort of shit would not have been prosecuted in many Islamic nations. Nothing more nothing less. the rest of you took off all over the spectrum trying to dismiss this as bee stings, and crime of passion.Poseidon wrote:
Still waiting for proof that this happens in western Islamic cultures on a large scale and that this specific killing was an "honor killing" and not just a murder.
Still waiting.
I said his Islamic culture would excuse this. It was asked of me to show where Islam condones this sort of shit. I did that. I never said he did this in the name of Islam or Allah. I said it would be excused by Islam.Poseidon wrote:
So what does any of that have to do with proving that he did this because of his religion?lowing wrote:
I said guess what religion he was, did anyone guess wrong? Then I said this sort of shit would not have been prosecuted in many Islamic nations. Nothing more nothing less. the rest of you took off all over the spectrum trying to dismiss this as bee stings, and crime of passion.Poseidon wrote:
Still waiting for proof that this happens in western Islamic cultures on a large scale and that this specific killing was an "honor killing" and not just a murder.
Still waiting.
namely because it was a thread from lowing.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Dude, I'm not saying dead isn't dead, I'm just saying that beheading nowadays sort of makes me mentally point the finger even before I see the perp's name. Problem?JohnG@lt wrote:
Sure, but the cause of death is largely irrelevant.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Probably not. Beheading has a particular flavor, though.
I'd like to know how many people were honestly not expecting that.
And how do you know what sect of Islam he came from, and what they would or would not condone? You do know not all of Islam condones honor killings and it's a very, very small portion that does, right? Well, it's been pointed out to you several times throughout this thread, but I doubt you know regardless. That's like saying if I picketed funerals of dead soldiers I'm sure it would be excused by Christianity, or if I killed off the rest of the Bosnian Muslims it'd be excused by Christianity. Makes absolutely no sense.lowing wrote:
I said his Islamic culture would excuse this. It was asked of me to show where Islam condones this sort of shit. I did that. I never said he did this in the name of Islam or Allah. I said it would be excused by Islam.Poseidon wrote:
So what does any of that have to do with proving that he did this because of his religion?lowing wrote:
I said guess what religion he was, did anyone guess wrong? Then I said this sort of shit would not have been prosecuted in many Islamic nations. Nothing more nothing less. the rest of you took off all over the spectrum trying to dismiss this as bee stings, and crime of passion.
Still waiting.
And you started this thread saying you "wonder where he gets it from", insinuating he beheaded her because of his religion. There is nothing to prove that he did, thus making you wrong. Once again.
I don't give a shit what "sect" of Islam he is. It is irrelevant. As was pointed out Saudi Arabia condones behavior like this, and you want to dismiss that?Poseidon wrote:
And how do you know what sect of Islam he came from, and what they would or would not condone? You do know not all of Islam condones honor killings and it's a very, very small portion that does, right? Well, it's been pointed out to you several times throughout this thread, but I doubt you know regardless. That's like saying if I picketed funerals of dead soldiers I'm sure it would be excused by Christianity, or if I killed off the rest of the Bosnian Muslims it'd be excused by Christianity. Makes absolutely no sense.lowing wrote:
I said his Islamic culture would excuse this. It was asked of me to show where Islam condones this sort of shit. I did that. I never said he did this in the name of Islam or Allah. I said it would be excused by Islam.Poseidon wrote:
So what does any of that have to do with proving that he did this because of his religion?
Still waiting.
And you started this thread saying you "wonder where he gets it from", insinuating he beheaded her because of his religion. There is nothing to prove that he did, thus making you wrong. Once again.
Yer right, I said "I wonder where he gets it from". How much imagination did you have to use to guess this cock sucker was from a ME Islamic culture?
I don't, and nobody else is going to just accept the "proof" of "how much imagination do you have to use to guess...". You still have no proof of it. I've asked for it probably 4-5 times now, and I still don't have it. You're trying to prove a point based on nothing, as usual.lowing wrote:
I don't give a shit what "sect" of Islam he is. It is irrelevant. As was pointed out Saudi Arabia condones behavior like this, and you want to dismiss that?Poseidon wrote:
And how do you know what sect of Islam he came from, and what they would or would not condone? You do know not all of Islam condones honor killings and it's a very, very small portion that does, right? Well, it's been pointed out to you several times throughout this thread, but I doubt you know regardless. That's like saying if I picketed funerals of dead soldiers I'm sure it would be excused by Christianity, or if I killed off the rest of the Bosnian Muslims it'd be excused by Christianity. Makes absolutely no sense.lowing wrote:
I said his Islamic culture would excuse this. It was asked of me to show where Islam condones this sort of shit. I did that. I never said he did this in the name of Islam or Allah. I said it would be excused by Islam.
And you started this thread saying you "wonder where he gets it from", insinuating he beheaded her because of his religion. There is nothing to prove that he did, thus making you wrong. Once again.
Yer right, I said "I wonder where he gets it from". How much imagination did you have to use to guess this cock sucker was from a ME Islamic culture?
Last edited by Poseidon (2011-03-10 20:21:17)
My entire point was, for the 10th time ( after you successfully guessed his culture and religion the first time) that this behavior would be condoned in Islamic cultures and nations. Proof of how fucked up it is. Thats it. Everything else argued against my point is nothing more than white wash to redirect the argument away from that point. I never claimed it was done in the name of Allah. I said Islam would excuse it.Poseidon wrote:
I don't, and nobody else is going to just accept the "proof" of "how much imagination do you have to use to guess...". You still have no proof of it. I've asked for it probably 4-5 times now, and I still don't have it. You're trying to prove a point based on nothing, as usual.lowing wrote:
I don't give a shit what "sect" of Islam he is. It is irrelevant. As was pointed out Saudi Arabia condones behavior like this, and you want to dismiss that?Poseidon wrote:
And how do you know what sect of Islam he came from, and what they would or would not condone? You do know not all of Islam condones honor killings and it's a very, very small portion that does, right? Well, it's been pointed out to you several times throughout this thread, but I doubt you know regardless. That's like saying if I picketed funerals of dead soldiers I'm sure it would be excused by Christianity, or if I killed off the rest of the Bosnian Muslims it'd be excused by Christianity. Makes absolutely no sense.
And you started this thread saying you "wonder where he gets it from", insinuating he beheaded her because of his religion. There is nothing to prove that he did, thus making you wrong. Once again.
Yer right, I said "I wonder where he gets it from". How much imagination did you have to use to guess this cock sucker was from a ME Islamic culture?
Last edited by lowing (2011-03-10 20:24:26)
You never responded back to me lowing. I've already pointed out that it's not just a Muslim thing or something that is unique to Muslims.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 0#p3476870
This really upsets me because I genuinely put effort and thought into those post.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 0#p3476870
This really upsets me because I genuinely put effort and thought into those post.
Irrelevant, saying some else does it too is not a defense. Fact is when Pashtuns Hindus, Buddhists or who ever the hell else you wanna point out becomes a global pain in the ass like Islam has today, get back with me.Macbeth wrote:
You never responded back to me lowing. I've already pointed out that it's not just a Muslim thing or something that is unique to Muslims.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 0#p3476870
This really upsets me because I genuinely put effort and thought into those post.
Last edited by lowing (2011-03-10 20:42:19)
No it's relevant. You're holding this up as an example of Islam being a shitty religion though this practice, honor killing, is not something only they commit or all of them do. (I don't think this was a honor killing though as much as a normal murder of a spouse though.)lowing wrote:
Irrelevant, saying some else does it too is not a defense. Fact is when Pashtuns Hindus, Buddhists or who ever the hell else you wanna point out become a global pain in the ass like Islam has today, get back with me.Macbeth wrote:
You never responded back to me lowing. I've already pointed out that it's not just a Muslim thing or something that is unique to Muslims.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 0#p3476870
This really upsets me because I genuinely put effort and thought into those post.
Like I said before I don't like any religion and there are many valid criticisms of Islam but this story and honor killing isn't one. Now if you want to debate how much of geopolitical pain in the ass Islam is, I'm with you but you can't blame this on Islam.
By the way Pashtuns are an ethnic group not a religion. They are the people of Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan.
First off, it's not liberalism that's the problem. It's the people who are interpreting it (the politicians. The idea of Liberalism is not a bad one.)-Sh1fty- wrote:
Using labels is meek minded? What the heck is your problem? It's not the people I dislike, but liberalism itself. It's their ideas that are silly.UnkleRukus wrote:
This has nothing to do with anyone's political mindset. I despise the political groupings, I think they are idiotic and useless just like you. Labels for the meek minded. This has to do with you agreeing with someone you don't even know and posting no supporting information on a topic you know nothing about.I know plenty of friendly Muslims too, and I also know plenty of unfriendly Muslims. The issue at hand is the Koran's condoning of honor killings. I never said all Muslims act that way so don't pretend I did.UnkleRukus wrote:
Islam is not a bad religion and neither are most of it's participants. I've met more friendly and awesome Muslims then I have Christians. Frankly people like you sicken me, you're brainwashed, ignorant and worthless."Open your goddamn eyes" is a pretty meaningless term. Your ideas of the world aren't the same as other peoples. You're essentially say you want me to see things your way, since, obviously according to you that's the only correct way to view the world, or at least that's the impression you give with your lousy attitude.UnkleRukus wrote:
Lowing is a smart man but he too needs to realize a few things. You however aren't smart, and you will never be smart unless you open your goddamn eyes to this world and stop seeing the generalizations because you will never be a success in life. I would seriously continue with this but it would be a broken fucking record, EG. ISLAM IS BAD, SHIFTY IS STUPID, LOWING IS A DUMB CONSERVATIVE, X IS A Y FAG.That's just your opinion, again. Other people might also dislike it, but some people like it. If you dislike then you could simply leave. Nobody is asking your to stay here and be a rude prick.UnkleRukus wrote:
Goddamn, this whole section could use a good deletion with the amount of tripe in it. The only worthwhile threads are the book club, science and architecture threads.
Classical Liberalism (the basis on which today's "liberals" are formed) Can be defined simply as a philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets. So saying you disliking Liberalism pretty much says you dislike the ideals that this country was founded on. Granted Modern Liberalism is a bit different.
Second, the koran isn't the only religious text that has inhumane things written in it. I'm sure that bible you keep going on about has some pretty dumb shit in it too.
From the shit you post, your view on the world is considered pretty shit, a lot of people in this forum can agree with me on this. You're pretty narrow minded, and you're quick to agree or argue with people without bothering to do any research.
I actually enjoy posting in here, whenever the threads are halfway decent and not stupid as fuck, but that right there narrows the good threads down to a hand full. At least you have life ahead of you to learn new things, just don't end up like H/J.
Last edited by UnkleRukus (2011-03-10 21:23:28)
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
I wasn't the one who asked for those quotes, as I don't believe they're relevant to the discussion - there are as many interpretations of religious texts as there are followers of that particular religion.lowing wrote:
Argument was his Islamic culture allows for this. That is a fact.
You asked for quotes from Islam that supported this behavior, they were provided, now you say it doesn't count?
Then the argument becomes some tribes in Afghanistan dos this shit as well, Irrelevant. Somehow I guess this is supposed to excuse Islamic cultures for doing it.
Islam is the problem child religion in the world today, not Christianity, or Hindus, or the fuckin Buddhists. Islam. That is also a fact.
There is simply no amount of redirection, denial, dismissal, or insults that is going to change any of those facts.
Which is also why I feel your definition of "Islamic culture" is wrong, it's difficult to try and isolate a point of cultural unity among muslims - as they can disagree on what Islam's teachings supposedly are, and how to follow them.
Because, I assume, you're talking radical Islam, quoting this excerpt from Sharia law concerning divorce would suit the discussion;
Nowhere does it state that it's OK to kill or even behead your wife in the process of a divorce or after it. Sharia allows domestic violence, hell, even beating of women in case of "rebellion" but something like this is not condoned. So don't label it as if it were.Sharia wrote:
Divorce
The laws governing divorce vary substantially between sects, schools, states and cultures. The following outline is general in nature.
A marriage can be terminated by the husband in the talaq process, or by the wife seeking divorce through khul'. Under faskh a marriage may be annulled or terminated by the qadi judge.
Men have the right of unilateral divorce under classical Sharia. A Sunni Muslim divorce is effective when the man tells his wife that he is divorcing her, however a Shia divorce also requires four witnesses.[96] Upon divorce, the husband must pay the wife any delayed component of the dower. If a man divorces his wife in this manner three times, he may not re-marry her unless she first marries, and is subsequently divorced from, another man. Only then, and only if the divorce from the second husband is not intended as a means to re-marry her first husband, may the first husband and the woman re-marry.[Qur'an 2:230]
In practice, unilateral divorce is only common in a few areas of the Islamic world. It is much more common for divorces to be accomplished by mutual consent.[96]
If the wife asks for a divorce and the husband refuses, the wife has a right, under classical Sharia, to divorce by khul'. Although this right is not recognized everywhere in Islam, it is becoming more common. In this scenario, the qadi judge will effect the divorce for the wife, and she may be required to return part, or all, of her dowry.[96]
Under faskh, a qadi judge can end or annul a marriage.[96] Apostasy, on the part of the husband or wife, ends a Muslim marriage in this way. Hardship or suffering on the part of the wife in a marriage may also be remedied in this way. This procedure is also used to annul a marriage in which one of the parties has a serious disability.[97]
Except in the case of a khul' divorce initiated by a woman, the divorced wife generally keeps her dowry from when she was married. A divorced woman is given child support until the age of weaning. The mother is usually granted custody of the child.[98] If the couple has divorced fewer than three times (meaning it is not a final divorce) the wife also receives spousal support for three menstrual cycles after the divorce, until it can be determined whether she is pregnant. Even in a threefold divorce, a pregnant wife will be supported during the waiting period, and the child will be supported afterwards.[99]
Yes, there are many glaring issues with radical Islamic culture, but even there you can't simply behead your wife and expect to get away with it.
oh and here their view on murder;
So yeah, some islamic cultures are fucked up because sharia is, but come on, it's a ridiculous claim to say that beheading your wife is condoned.Sharia wrote:
Murder
Sharia law for murder allows the death penalty, but is kinder than western law in one respect - after judicial judgement has been made, appeals are then allowed to the family of the murdered victims, and they are begged to be merciful. In Islam, it is always regarded as the height of mercy to forgive a murderer, even though one may have the right to take his/her life in reprisal.
The form of execution is not specified in Islam - i.e. it is not usually a stoning. Beheading used to be regarded as the quickest and most merciful way (as in Roman law, and the French guillotine); these days other methods may find approval. There are apparently far fewer executions in most Muslim countries than in the USA, for example. The penalty for adultery is open to debate. Most scholars will insist that the penalty as laid down in the Qur'an was 100 lashes, and there were various rules for regulating how lashes were to be given too. Other scholars maintain that the old penalty for adultery as laid down by the previous prophets was stoning (as in the Old Testament). By New Testament times, the prophet Jesus had the famous case where a guilty woman was forgiven and sent away, told only to sin no more.
In some Muslim societies, judges and populaces might stone out of mistaken belief that this was what Islam required. In fact, Islam made it virtually impossible - to be sentenced to death for adultery, the couple had to be actually witnessed performing the physical act by four people who were in a position to identify both parties without doubt; this virtually ruled out the penalty, since adultery is taken for granted as a secret act and something not done in public.
Last edited by Shocking (2011-03-11 00:21:46)
inane little opines
So you do tolerate it, that's just ... you know you just contradicted yourself in that post?lowing wrote:
Wow when did I every say anything like that?Varegg wrote:
According to lowing chain of thought you do ... one tolerates the actions of ones friends and Saudi is your friend ...11 Bravo wrote:
doesnt mean i have to
As far as Saudi goes, it is a lesser of 2 evils type of alliance. Better to tolerate their bullshit than to have another anti US country in the ME to contend with
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
It's actually not accepted by the majority of Islam, it's accepted by a very few ... and those few are the ones you constantly hear about, you simply can't judge the masses for the actions of the few ... how is that being an ass about it?11 Bravo wrote:
no...thats just stupid and you being an ass about it. its accepted in the majortiy of islamic cultures. not sure how anyone can argue that.Varegg wrote:
According to lowing chain of thought you do ... one tolerates the actions of ones friends and Saudi is your friend ...11 Bravo wrote:
doesnt mean i have to
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
That's right, it takes proper planning and forethought.Shocking wrote:
Yes, there are many glaring issues with radical Islamic culture, but even there you can't simply behead your wife and expect to get away with it.
I tolerate in the fact that I don't give a fuck what Saudi Arabia does, as long as it stays in Saudi Arabia. Doesn't mean I don't think it is fucked up.Varegg wrote:
So you do tolerate it, that's just ... you know you just contradicted yourself in that post?lowing wrote:
Wow when did I every say anything like that?Varegg wrote:
According to lowing chain of thought you do ... one tolerates the actions of ones friends and Saudi is your friend ...
As far as Saudi goes, it is a lesser of 2 evils type of alliance. Better to tolerate their bullshit than to have another anti US country in the ME to contend with
I didn't necessarily call it an honor killing. I said it would not be punished in Islamic cultures.Macbeth wrote:
No it's relevant. You're holding this up as an example of Islam being a shitty religion though this practice, honor killing, is not something only they commit or all of them do. (I don't think this was a honor killing though as much as a normal murder of a spouse though.)lowing wrote:
Irrelevant, saying some else does it too is not a defense. Fact is when Pashtuns Hindus, Buddhists or who ever the hell else you wanna point out become a global pain in the ass like Islam has today, get back with me.Macbeth wrote:
You never responded back to me lowing. I've already pointed out that it's not just a Muslim thing or something that is unique to Muslims.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 0#p3476870
This really upsets me because I genuinely put effort and thought into those post.
Like I said before I don't like any religion and there are many valid criticisms of Islam but this story and honor killing isn't one. Now if you want to debate how much of geopolitical pain in the ass Islam is, I'm with you but you can't blame this on Islam.
By the way Pashtuns are an ethnic group not a religion. They are the people of Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan.
Google your own shit on honor killings, see if Islam does not dominate the pages with articles and examples of it. Contrary to popular belief I don't make this shit up.
I didn't blame anything on Islam, last time, I said it would be condoned.
Last edited by lowing (2011-03-11 12:17:29)