Announcement

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/nf43FxS
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5487|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

A colossal problem ahead is going to be the evaporation of wealth when baby-boomers come to sell their businesses for fractions of what they thought they were worth - because there just aren't people with the money to buy them.

FEOS wrote:

And our "outgoings" from a federal government perspective, each year, are a fraction of our GDP, not "even huger", as you put it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … ld_map.PNG
2009 Public Debt As a Percentage of GDP
They figure you quoted suggests the US is one of the worst off countries in that respect.

GDP Is often quoted by people who want to mask things like balance of trade and national debt problems.
I'm sure I could turn over a ton of money every year if I borrowed a few million dollars, took in investments from suckers and further loans and spent it all in the short term.
And now you expose your inability to read basic data. Total debt. Not annual deficits.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5182|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

A colossal problem ahead is going to be the evaporation of wealth when baby-boomers come to sell their businesses for fractions of what they thought they were worth - because there just aren't people with the money to buy them.

FEOS wrote:

And our "outgoings" from a federal government perspective, each year, are a fraction of our GDP, not "even huger", as you put it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … ld_map.PNG
2009 Public Debt As a Percentage of GDP
They figure you quoted suggests the US is one of the worst off countries in that respect.

GDP Is often quoted by people who want to mask things like balance of trade and national debt problems.
I'm sure I could turn over a ton of money every year if I borrowed a few million dollars, took in investments from suckers and further loans and spent it all in the short term.
And now you expose your inability to read basic data. Total debt. Not annual deficits.
And where did I say it was annual debt? I didn't.
And now you expose your inability to read.
#FreeBritney
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|4314|Cleveland, Ohio
both of you shut the fuck up.  fuck sake must you spam every thread with your shit?  this is just like dilbert v lowing shit.  imagine that though.  look at the common denominator.
-----------

and the rest of the world is catching up..we are not falling behind.  thats not a bad thing.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5487|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

A colossal problem ahead is going to be the evaporation of wealth when baby-boomers come to sell their businesses for fractions of what they thought they were worth - because there just aren't people with the money to buy them.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … ld_map.PNG
2009 Public Debt As a Percentage of GDP
They figure you quoted suggests the US is one of the worst off countries in that respect.

GDP Is often quoted by people who want to mask things like balance of trade and national debt problems.
I'm sure I could turn over a ton of money every year if I borrowed a few million dollars, took in investments from suckers and further loans and spent it all in the short term.
And now you expose your inability to read basic data. Total debt. Not annual deficits.
And where did I say it was annual debt? I didn't.
And now you expose your inability to read.
"outgoings". Your term, not mine.

I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|5886|Nårvei

To answer the question in the OP: Yes I think the best days are behind us, not just in the US but in the western part of the world in general, our economy and society in general are based on consumerism and a fast growing one the last 40 years ... this is no longer a sustainable way of life seeing as we now have to borrow more and more money to keep up the growth ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5487|'Murka

Varegg wrote:

To answer the question in the OP: Yes I think the best days are behind us, not just in the US but in the western part of the world in general, our economy and society in general are based on consumerism and a fast growing one the last 40 years ... this is no longer a sustainable way of life seeing as we now have to borrow more and more money to keep up the growth ...
The problem is that our governments (and to a large extent, private individuals) have been borrowing. You can sustain a consumer-driven economy without borrowing, it just won't grow at the rate we've seen since the 90's. Everyone needs to focus on paying off their debt while maintaining a lower level of consumption so the wheels don't come off, then once the debt is in control (both public and private), increase the consumption appropriately without borrowing.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|4314|Cleveland, Ohio
people need to learn to be mobile.  these stubborn asses who wont move are not helping matters.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|5769
I think a portion of our problems would be eased if we Americans had more respect and love for our elders.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|5769
I will explain myself later. I'm on my out the door. (I promise my statement wasn't empty and insane.)

Last edited by Superior Mind (2011-03-07 03:59:03)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5182|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

"outgoings". Your term, not mine.

I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
Which wasn't in reference to that figure.
You have fun now.
#FreeBritney
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|5886|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

Varegg wrote:

To answer the question in the OP: Yes I think the best days are behind us, not just in the US but in the western part of the world in general, our economy and society in general are based on consumerism and a fast growing one the last 40 years ... this is no longer a sustainable way of life seeing as we now have to borrow more and more money to keep up the growth ...
The problem is that our governments (and to a large extent, private individuals) have been borrowing. You can sustain a consumer-driven economy without borrowing, it just won't grow at the rate we've seen since the 90's. Everyone needs to focus on paying off their debt while maintaining a lower level of consumption so the wheels don't come off, then once the debt is in control (both public and private), increase the consumption appropriately without borrowing.
I get your point but the key here is that it has gone to far ... way to far ...

Like communism looks good on paper so does our consumerism ... communism failed because the system didn't work out like it was supposed to and we now see the same with cutthroat capitalism and consumerism ... and unregulated capitalism or insufficient regulated capitalism is what we basically have today ...

We have to back down faster that what we would like to think or 2009 will seem like a small ripple in the water compared to a tsunami of economical problems if we keep up the level we have today ...

And it's not since the 90's FEOS, consumer driven economy was invented in the US in the 50's ... consumerism based on credits was invented in the 80's and reinvented in the 90's ... to acquire more credit than your total worth was invented just a few years ago and caused the western economic foundation to rumble 2 years ago ...

So you see at each bad turn, we make the system worse rather than slowing down to reflect over what really happend ... and those decissions are made by gready men with short time profit in mind ... definately not with the best interest of the people in mind ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5182|eXtreme to the maX
Wild consumption based on debt and finite resources is fine until one of the two runs out.

Basically the West, and especially the US, has been riding cheap oil for the standard of living. Its a downward slope now - the argument that the US has enough oil to last 200 years is bogus even if thats true, the rest of the world consumes it also at an ever increasing rate which means the price will only rise.

Short-termism will screw us, while the Chinese have 1,2,5,10,20,50 and 100 year plans already in place.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-07 04:06:21)

#FreeBritney
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5487|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Wild consumption based on debt and finite resources is fine until one of the two runs out.

Basically the West, and especially the US, has been riding cheap oil for the standard of living. Its a downward slope now - the argument that the US has enough oil to last 200 years is bogus even if thats true, the rest of the world consumes it also at an ever increasing rate which means the price will only rise.

Short-termism will screw us, while the Chinese have 1,2,5,10,20,50 and 100 year plans already in place.
The argument that the US has enough oil for domestic production/consumption is most certainly not bogus. One of our biggest national security/economic weaknesses is our dependence on foreign sources of energy. We have plenty of energy reserves here--we just don't tap them. Some argue that we're playing the very long game, waiting for other reserves to dry up, posturing ourselves to be the provider of choice down the road...but that's a ridiculous gamble.

If we tap our own reserves, leaving the foreign reserves for (crazy idea, I know)--foreigners--then we'll be removing a serious Achilles' Heel and be better able to focus on other problems. The world does consume it also, but when you're producing it domestically and not selling it on the world market, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world's doing.

And the point being made ref debt and deficits (two different concepts), is that the second graphic was total debt, not deficits (annual debt). You were talking about deficits when you said "outgoings". Hence us talking past each other.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5182|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

when you're producing it domestically and not selling it on the world market
LOL OK. You think the oil companies will sell it for less than they can get on the open market?

And total debt => colossal interest payments = outgoings

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-07 04:44:46)

#FreeBritney
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5487|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

when you're producing it domestically and not selling it on the world market
LOL OK. You think the oil companies will sell it for less than they can get on the open market?
Yes, since they have to drill on BLM land.

And total debt => colossal interest payments = outgoings
Nice attempt to recover, but a fail nonetheless.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5182|eXtreme to the maX
There was nothing to recover, just making the point they're related.
#FreeBritney
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5487|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

There was nothing to recover, just making the point they're related.
Yes, they're related, but the largest portion of our annual budget is still entitlement programs.

2010 is the last year Congress actually passed a budget. Interest on the debt was 4.63% of the total "outgoings".
Stupid facts are so facty.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ce/Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg/800px-Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5182|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Yes, they're related, but the largest portion of our annual budget is still entitlement programs.
You mean like the 'defence' budget?
#FreeBritney
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|5618|Texas - Bigger than France
Dood, as long as the gdp is positive, debt doesn't matter.  Of course, if you are projecting gdp to be negative, then it's a different story
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4434|London, England

Pug wrote:

Dood, as long as the gdp is positive, debt doesn't matter.  Of course, if you are projecting gdp to be negative, then it's a different story
This. Its just a number that doesnt really mean anything. Same with trade deficits. They're simplistic ideas that the media pushes because they're easy to understand by your average moron. If you are basing your arguments on either it makes you look uneducated. Yes dilbert, you're an ignorant ass.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5728|USA
Almost as ignorant as insulting and conducting personal attacks on the internet.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|5769
As I began earlier: if the elderly could rely on their kin to care and provide for them there may be less of an issue in trying to eliminate or reorganize social security and medicade. I think one of the reasons the American family is a fragile and mostly imagined entity is because our business making paradigm coerces children to move far from their parents to seek out work. If people had a reason to stay in "Springfield" as much as they do to move to a New York or LA, we might see people giving a shit about things like hyper-local infrastructure. Instead rural and agrarian towns dry up in the face of farming giants along with a lack of industry to support infastructure. Basically, we ought to be more self reliant. People with land should be encouraged to grow on it and sell in local-only vendor markets. Let big farmers sell out of state and out of country. Make the local small scale farmers sell amongst each other.

Last edited by Superior Mind (2011-03-07 07:48:25)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4434|London, England

Superior Mind wrote:

As I began earlier: if the elderly could rely on their kin to care and provide for them there may be less of an issue in trying to eliminate or reorganize social security and medicade. I think one of the reasons the American family is a fragile and mostly imagined entity is because our business making paradigm coerces children to move far from their parents to seek out work. If people had a reason to stay in "Springfield" as much as they do to move to a New York or LA, we might see people giving a shit about things like hyper-local infrastructure. Instead rural and agrarian towns dry up in the face of farming giants along with a lack of industry to support infastructure. Basically, we ought to be more self reliant. People with land should be encouraged to grow on it and sell in local-only vendor markets. Let big farmers sell out of state and out of country. Make the local small scale farmers sell amongst each other.
Move out of Brooklyn. Seriously.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|5769

[email protected] wrote:

Superior Mind wrote:

As I began earlier: if the elderly could rely on their kin to care and provide for them there may be less of an issue in trying to eliminate or reorganize social security and medicade. I think one of the reasons the American family is a fragile and mostly imagined entity is because our business making paradigm coerces children to move far from their parents to seek out work. If people had a reason to stay in "Springfield" as much as they do to move to a New York or LA, we might see people giving a shit about things like hyper-local infrastructure. Instead rural and agrarian towns dry up in the face of farming giants along with a lack of industry to support infastructure. Basically, we ought to be more self reliant. People with land should be encouraged to grow on it and sell in local-only vendor markets. Let big farmers sell out of state and out of country. Make the local small scale farmers sell amongst each other.
Move out of Brooklyn. Seriously.
What do mean by that?
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|5791|US

Superior Mind wrote:

As I began earlier: if the elderly could rely on their kin to care and provide for them there may be less of an issue in trying to eliminate or reorganize social security and medicade. I think one of the reasons the American family is a fragile and mostly imagined entity is because our business making paradigm coerces children to move far from their parents to seek out work. If people had a reason to stay in "Springfield" as much as they do to move to a New York or LA, we might see people giving a shit about things like hyper-local infrastructure. Instead rural and agrarian towns dry up in the face of farming giants along with a lack of industry to support infastructure. Basically, we ought to be more self reliant. People with land should be encouraged to grow on it and sell in local-only vendor markets. Let big farmers sell out of state and out of country. Make the local small scale farmers sell amongst each other.
So, you are advocating a return to the largely pre-industrial, pre-urban society that the US used to be (in the early 1800s).  That's not the best argument for maintaining a high standard of living or superpower status...returning to a lower-standard of living/non-superpower system, that is.

Would maintaining more stable families produce a lot of good effects?  Sure, I bet it would.  Would returning to a largely agrarian society be beneficial?  I'm a bit more skeptical!

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2021 Jeff Minard