Are America's Best Days Behind Us?

2011-03-03 16:47:59

#1

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5823

An interesting article was posted today at Time.com and it's getting a bit of attention for obvious reasons.
It's a bit long but there are 24 hours in a day and if you can spend some of those reading EE chat you can spend 10 minutes reading an article on Time.com

Some highlights.

Sure, the political system seems to be engaged in big debates about the budget, pensions and the nation's future. But this is mostly a sideshow...The debate between Democrats and Republicans on the budget excludes the largest drivers of the long-term deficit — Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare — to say nothing of the biggest nonentitlement costs, like the tax break for interest on mortgages.
...
But reducing funds for things like education, scientific research, air-traffic control, NASA, infrastructure and alternative energy will not produce much in savings, and it will hurt the economy's long-term growth...We are cutting investments and subsidizing consumption — exactly the opposite of what are the main drivers of economic growth.
...
America's success has made it sclerotic. We have sat on top of the world for almost a century, and our repeated economic, political and military victories have made us quite sure that we are destined to be No. 1 forever.
...
A crucial aspect of beginning to turn things around would be for the U.S. to make an honest accounting of where it stands and what it can learn from other countries...Any politician who dares suggest that the U.S. can learn from — let alone copy — other countries is likely to be denounced instantly.
...
What is really depressing is the tone of our debate. In place of the thoughtful concern of Jefferson and Adams, we have its opposite in tone and temperament — the shallow triumphalism purveyed by politicians now. The founders loved America, but they also understood that it was a work in progress, an unfinished enterprise that would constantly be in need of change, adjustment and repair. For most of our history, we have become rich while remaining restless. Rather than resting on our laurels, we have feared getting fat and lazy. And that has been our greatest strength. In the past, worrying about decline has helped us avert that very condition. Let's hope it does so today.

I don't think the sky is falling or that the Chinese are going to dominate our asses anytime soon but it does seem that our country isn't improving and I don't believe that our elected officials (Democrat or Republican) are helping turn things around.

I'm only 20 so my experience in this country/life is like anyone in my age group (under 25) brief so I could be wrong so I'm interested in what the older members ( I think we have 5 of those) think of the how America is progressing. Euros/Aussies are of course invited to give their two cents. It's interesting to see the outsiders perspective on things.

2011-03-03 16:52:06

#2

jsnipy: ...; +3,277|6760|...

Best days for who? The black, the native Americans?

2011-03-03 17:04:53

#3

Hurricane2k9: Pendulous Sweaty Balls; +1,538|5939|College Park, MD

I agree Mac. I wish all of these people on Capitol Hill would actually work together to improve this country instead of worrying about stepping on some voters' toes.

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg

2011-03-03 17:13:56

#4

11 Bravo: Banned; +965|5475|Cleveland, Ohio

Warren Buffett: 'America's best days lie ahead'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/articl … ahead.html

2011-03-03 18:06:01

#5

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5596|London, England

Macbeth wrote:
An interesting article was posted today at Time.com and it's getting a bit of attention for obvious reasons.
It's a bit long but there are 24 hours in a day and if you can spend some of those reading EE chat you can spend 10 minutes reading an article on Time.com

Some highlights.
Sure, the political system seems to be engaged in big debates about the budget, pensions and the nation's future. But this is mostly a sideshow...The debate between Democrats and Republicans on the budget excludes the largest drivers of the long-term deficit — Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare — to say nothing of the biggest nonentitlement costs, like the tax break for interest on mortgages.
...
But reducing funds for things like education, scientific research, air-traffic control, NASA, infrastructure and alternative energy will not produce much in savings, and it will hurt the economy's long-term growth...We are cutting investments and subsidizing consumption — exactly the opposite of what are the main drivers of economic growth.
...
America's success has made it sclerotic. We have sat on top of the world for almost a century, and our repeated economic, political and military victories have made us quite sure that we are destined to be No. 1 forever.
...
A crucial aspect of beginning to turn things around would be for the U.S. to make an honest accounting of where it stands and what it can learn from other countries...Any politician who dares suggest that the U.S. can learn from — let alone copy — other countries is likely to be denounced instantly.
...
What is really depressing is the tone of our debate. In place of the thoughtful concern of Jefferson and Adams, we have its opposite in tone and temperament — the shallow triumphalism purveyed by politicians now. The founders loved America, but they also understood that it was a work in progress, an unfinished enterprise that would constantly be in need of change, adjustment and repair. For most of our history, we have become rich while remaining restless. Rather than resting on our laurels, we have feared getting fat and lazy. And that has been our greatest strength. In the past, worrying about decline has helped us avert that very condition. Let's hope it does so today.
I don't think the sky is falling or that the Chinese are going to dominate our asses anytime soon but it does seem that our country isn't improving and I don't believe that our elected officials (Democrat or Republican) are helping turn things around.

I'm only 20 so my experience in this country/life is like anyone in my age group (under 25) brief so I could be wrong so I'm interested in what the older members ( I think we have 5 of those) think of the how America is progressing. Euros/Aussies are of course invited to give their two cents. It's interesting to see the outsiders perspective on things.

Why do you think the tea party came about? Problem is, they had their message marginalized instead of embraced. Then it was ultimately co-opted by the right wing. It should've been a unifying force for those on both the right and the left that were fed up with how things were going. Instead, people like Huffington Post and Jon Stewart instantly saw them as a threat that must be made fun of until it went away.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-03-03 18:23:24

#6

d4rkst4r: biggie smalls; +72|6691|Ontario, Canada

a bit long? anyone in any social science program at a university will know what a long read is.

"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"

2011-03-03 19:11:16

#7

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5596|London, England

d4rkst4r wrote:
a bit long? anyone in any social science program at a university will know what a long read is.

Is that a brag post? Really?

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-03-03 19:45:29

#8

Hurricane2k9: Pendulous Sweaty Balls; +1,538|5939|College Park, MD

JohnG@lt wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
An interesting article was posted today at Time.com and it's getting a bit of attention for obvious reasons.
It's a bit long but there are 24 hours in a day and if you can spend some of those reading EE chat you can spend 10 minutes reading an article on Time.com

Some highlights.
Sure, the political system seems to be engaged in big debates about the budget, pensions and the nation's future. But this is mostly a sideshow...The debate between Democrats and Republicans on the budget excludes the largest drivers of the long-term deficit — Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare — to say nothing of the biggest nonentitlement costs, like the tax break for interest on mortgages.
...
But reducing funds for things like education, scientific research, air-traffic control, NASA, infrastructure and alternative energy will not produce much in savings, and it will hurt the economy's long-term growth...We are cutting investments and subsidizing consumption — exactly the opposite of what are the main drivers of economic growth.
...
America's success has made it sclerotic. We have sat on top of the world for almost a century, and our repeated economic, political and military victories have made us quite sure that we are destined to be No. 1 forever.
...
A crucial aspect of beginning to turn things around would be for the U.S. to make an honest accounting of where it stands and what it can learn from other countries...Any politician who dares suggest that the U.S. can learn from — let alone copy — other countries is likely to be denounced instantly.
...
What is really depressing is the tone of our debate. In place of the thoughtful concern of Jefferson and Adams, we have its opposite in tone and temperament — the shallow triumphalism purveyed by politicians now. The founders loved America, but they also understood that it was a work in progress, an unfinished enterprise that would constantly be in need of change, adjustment and repair. For most of our history, we have become rich while remaining restless. Rather than resting on our laurels, we have feared getting fat and lazy. And that has been our greatest strength. In the past, worrying about decline has helped us avert that very condition. Let's hope it does so today.
I don't think the sky is falling or that the Chinese are going to dominate our asses anytime soon but it does seem that our country isn't improving and I don't believe that our elected officials (Democrat or Republican) are helping turn things around.

I'm only 20 so my experience in this country/life is like anyone in my age group (under 25) brief so I could be wrong so I'm interested in what the older members ( I think we have 5 of those) think of the how America is progressing. Euros/Aussies are of course invited to give their two cents. It's interesting to see the outsiders perspective on things.
Why do you think the tea party came about? Problem is, they had their message marginalized instead of embraced. Then it was ultimately co-opted by the right wing. It should've been a unifying force for those on both the right and the left that were fed up with how things were going. Instead, people like Huffington Post and Jon Stewart instantly saw them as a threat that must be made fun of until it went away.

yep, I remember thinking the Tea Party sounded pretty good when it first came about. Then, like you said, it became a beacon of far-right lunacy.

2011-03-04 14:48:27

#9

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

The loss of cheap oil, and the fact that the US has practically reached its borrowing limit are the start of a colossal downward spiral.

Expensive gas - with a 20%+ Israel premium on top - huge debt payments, no significant further borrowing, an ageing population with the expactation of unlimited medical care, ageing and inefficient infrastructure - its not going to be pretty.

Unless the US can invent fusion power and stop the blacks and mexicans breeding its doomed.

I'd suggest a one child policy for poor/stupid people and compulsory extreme sports for retirees.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-04 14:49:40)

Fuck Israel

2011-03-04 14:49:53

#10

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6708

im not sure about the economic analysis... but on a cultural level, the dialectic of modernity/decadence is as old as culture/society itself.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-04 14:52:27

#11

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

The US has had a big push from the "USA No. 1" mindset, as all successful cultures have had at times.

"We're No. 3 behind China and India" is somewhat less motivating I guess.

@ Uzique's karma - Kidding....

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-04 14:58:38)

Fuck Israel

2011-03-04 15:31:12

#12

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6649|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
The US has had a big push from the "USA No. 1" mindset, as all successful cultures have had at times.

"We're No. 3 behind China and India" is somewhat less motivating I guess.

@ Uzique's karma - Kidding....

2010 Nominal GDP

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Public_debt_percent_gdp_world_map.PNG

2009 Public Debt As a Percentage of GDP

And we have 200 years' worth of domestic oil reserves at current consumption rates, if we would only tap them.

/thread

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-04 15:35:43

#13

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5596|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
The loss of cheap oil, and the fact that the US has practically reached its borrowing limit are the start of a colossal downward spiral.

Expensive gas - with a 20%+ Israel premium on top - huge debt payments, no significant further borrowing, an ageing population with the expactation of unlimited medical care, ageing and inefficient infrastructure - its not going to be pretty.

Unless the US can invent fusion power and stop the blacks and mexicans breeding its doomed.

I'd suggest a one child policy for poor/stupid people and compulsory extreme sports for retirees.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rqH4fUbko2U/TS3fflBSfGI/AAAAAAAASvw/DGYxNzhwMkM/s1600/troll.jpg

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-03-04 15:59:53

#14

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
The US has had a big push from the "USA No. 1" mindset, as all successful cultures have had at times.

"We're No. 3 behind China and India" is somewhat less motivating I guess.

@ Uzique's karma - Kidding....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … al_GDP.jpg
2010 Nominal GDP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … ld_map.PNG
2009 Public Debt As a Percentage of GDP

And we have 200 years' worth of domestic oil reserves at current consumption rates, if we would only tap them.

/thread

Well, figure 1 and is changing, not sure what point you're making with figure 2 except the US is proper screwed.

Fuck Israel

2011-03-04 16:22:31

#15

11 Bravo: Banned; +965|5475|Cleveland, Ohio

Dilbert_X wrote:
The loss of cheap oil.

its still cheap. 150-200 per barrel range would be an issue. however we have increased domestic production to offset this right now. so.....no. try again.

2011-03-04 16:23:21

#16

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6649|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
The US has had a big push from the "USA No. 1" mindset, as all successful cultures have had at times.

"We're No. 3 behind China and India" is somewhat less motivating I guess.

@ Uzique's karma - Kidding....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … al_GDP.jpg
2010 Nominal GDP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … ld_map.PNG
2009 Public Debt As a Percentage of GDP

And we have 200 years' worth of domestic oil reserves at current consumption rates, if we would only tap them.

/thread
Well, figure 1 and is changing, not sure what point you're making with figure 2 except the US is proper screwed.

The point with figure 1 is we are so far ahead of the next in line, it's ridiculous.

Figure 2: Compare those in Figure 1 with those in Figure 2. The only one who's in decent shape is China, and they're still WAY behind us...and their reporting is suspect, anyway.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-04 21:50:47

#17

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
Figure 2: Compare those in Figure 1 with those in Figure 2. The only one who's in decent shape is China, and they're still WAY behind us...and their reporting is suspect, anyway.

Wut? The US is almost last.
It doesn't matter how big your GDP is if you have a govt deficit, a trade deficit and colossal national debt.
GDP basically doesn't matter.

"My income is huge, and my outgoings are even huger. Go me!"
Just means your consumption is excessive and your deficit out of control.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-04 21:51:58)

Fuck Israel

2011-03-05 05:44:38

#18

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6649|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Figure 2: Compare those in Figure 1 with those in Figure 2. The only one who's in decent shape is China, and they're still WAY behind us...and their reporting is suspect, anyway.
Wut? The US is almost last.
It doesn't matter how big your GDP is if you have a govt deficit, a trade deficit and colossal national debt.
GDP basically doesn't matter.

"My income is huge, and my outgoings are even huger. Go me!"
Just means your consumption is excessive and your deficit out of control.

I meant way behind us in overall GDP. And again, China's reporting of deficit is suspect.

If you look at the numbers, there are other western nations in far worse shape than the US (UK's external debt is 410% of GDP, as compared to the US's 95%, for example)...so they lump them into "the Eurozone" to make it seem less bad. And our "outgoings" from a federal government perspective, each year, are a fraction of our GDP, not "even huger", as you put it.

That's not to say the US doesn't have economic problems. Of course we do. As do many other countries. But is the sky falling? No. Is it a bad thing that the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) are rising? Of course not. Other peoples' success does not equate to our failure. It is not a zero sum game.

And to say "GDP basically doesn't matter" exposes a colossal lack of understanding of basic economics on your part, Dilly.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-05 08:44:35

#19

d4rkst4r: biggie smalls; +72|6691|Ontario, Canada

The second figure says a lot. A lot of people here in Canada think we're handling the recession well compared to most countries. When you look at the figure as a percentage of GDP, we're clearly not. GDP may not be the entirely story of a country, but it sure is important.

"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"

2011-03-05 13:26:24

#20

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7009|PNW

How many times has that question been asked in the last 50 years?

2011-03-05 13:53:50

#21

13/f/taiwan: Member; +940|5936

gas is at 3.79/gallon. 10 years ago it was 1.09 i believe.

2011-03-05 13:56:27

#22

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6649|'Murka

13/f/taiwan wrote:
gas is at 3.79/gallon. 10 years ago it was 1.09 i believe.

What was the dollar worth 10 years ago in today's dollars?

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-05 14:04:35

#23

13/f/taiwan: Member; +940|5936

assuming this is accurate: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

around $1.32.

2011-03-05 14:44:23

#24

Pug: UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate; +652|6780|Texas - Bigger than France

There's gonna be the largest wealth transfer in history coming up when the baby boomers fade out...but it's gonna be rocky for a while. I'm pretty sure you can spin anything if you have the right mindset.

2011-03-06 00:27:30

#25

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

A colossal problem ahead is going to be the evaporation of wealth when baby-boomers come to sell their businesses for fractions of what they thought they were worth - because there just aren't people with the money to buy them.

FEOS wrote:
And our "outgoings" from a federal government perspective, each year, are a fraction of our GDP, not "even huger", as you put it.

2009 Public Debt As a Percentage of GDP
They figure you quoted suggests the US is one of the worst off countries in that respect.

GDP Is often quoted by people who want to mask things like balance of trade and national debt problems.
I'm sure I could turn over a ton of money every year if I borrowed a few million dollars, took in investments from suckers and further loans and spent it all in the short term.

Fuck Israel

BF2S Forums Are America's Best Days Behind Us?

Macbeth wrote:

d4rkst4r wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

13/f/taiwan wrote:

FEOS wrote:

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