BF2S Forums GOP senator threatened by mob, saved by Democrat Hulsey

11 Bravo wrote:

rights?

what rights are stripped?  unions are not a constitutional right.  are they forced to work in wisconsin?  no.  are you forced to be a teacher or firefighter?  no.  can you leave and get another job?  yes. 

so what rights?  why is it your right to make 10k more per year if you are union?  why is it your right to get a pension when the majority of us cannot?  why do i have to pay for that as a taxpayer?

Covered under the Freedom of Association under the First Amendment.



Add to that, the U.S signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
In part from that declaration " the right of workers to organize and collectively bargain."

I'll check back later.

Last edited by Karbin (2011-03-10 18:12:31)

Karbin wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

rights?

what rights are stripped?  unions are not a constitutional right.  are they forced to work in wisconsin?  no.  are you forced to be a teacher or firefighter?  no.  can you leave and get another job?  yes. 

so what rights?  why is it your right to make 10k more per year if you are union?  why is it your right to get a pension when the majority of us cannot?  why do i have to pay for that as a taxpayer?

Covered under the Freedom of Association under the First Amendment.



Add to that, the U.S signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
In part from that declaration " the right of workers to organize and collectively bargain."

I'll check back later.

Umm... First off, UN declarations aren't worth more than a scrap of toilet paper.

Second, workers should most certainly have the right to collectively bargain, and strike, and do whatever else they want as long as it doesn't interfere with their job being performed. On the flip side, those same workers should have the right to be terminated by their employer whenever the employer wishes to end their working relationship. I would fire every last worker the moment they even attempted to organize into a union but under US law I can't do that. It's illegal. Thus, the balance has swung far too heavily in favor of the workers themselves who in all reality don't have any right to their job, their pay, or anything else associated with it. They are hired to perform a job and if they don't like their pay or their job conditions then they are more than free to either ask for a raise individually, or to seek another job. They are not serfs. Free will and all.

Now, I actually don't mind unions in the private sector. They act as a nice source of give and take with management (I would never join one of course, but they have their place to a certain extent). Why I don't have a problem with it is that each side has their own interest in mind. Neither wants to give up anything more than they have to because it's in their own rational self interest not to. Changes are glacial but when they occur they're generally good for both sides.

That said, public servant unions are an abomination. Abomination really isn't a strong enough word. Oh well. Why you ask? Because unlike in the private sector where there are two opposing forces keeping the balance, public service unions don't have anyone pushing back against them. Politicians certainly aren't going to stand up to them except in the most extreme of circumstances, and the people themselves, the ones who are the actual employer, have barely any voice at all. They take and take and take and take and in return they vote in, and maintain, the office of the guy that is supposed to represent us, the taxpayer. He's loyal to his power base so he gives the unions whatever they want. Notice that the states facing budget shortfalls are Blue states with strong unions? Notice how the taxbase of the nation has fled to Red states? You think that's a coincidence? You think it's a coincidence that these same Blue states have the highest taxes in the nation? This Wisconsin shit is a few decades overdue but I welcome it with both arms. I'd even give it a reach around.

Macbeth wrote:

Karbin wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

rights?

what rights are stripped?  unions are not a constitutional right.  are they forced to work in wisconsin?  no.  are you forced to be a teacher or firefighter?  no.  can you leave and get another job?  yes. 

so what rights?  why is it your right to make 10k more per year if you are union?  why is it your right to get a pension when the majority of us cannot?  why do i have to pay for that as a taxpayer?

Covered under the Freedom of Association under the First Amendment.



Add to that, the U.S signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
In part from that declaration " the right of workers to organize and collectively bargain."

A. The Freedom of Association part of the 1st is to prevent the government from being oppressive to it's people not to make sure trade union and guilds are allowed to negotiate benefits packages. Any constitutional scholar would tell you you are reading it wrong.

B. The vast majority of people on this forum don't give a shit about any U.N. treaties don't even bother.

lol bringing up the un. yeah like anybody listens to them.

Ok.. back..I'll try to answer all the posts... may get owned... as I said we all know where that players on this forum stand so I don't think it will change any minds.

First... the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, was thrown out there as troll bait.... glad you liked the cool aid 
The U.S. pushed for the declaration... shows that when the U.S. wants it, the U.N. is a nice tool for it. Other times "It's a joke". Looks good when you hold it up to other country but, will not carry out the same for your own people.

"The Freedom of Association part of the 1st is to prevent the government from being oppressive to it's people not to make sure trade union and guilds are allowed to negotiate benefits packages."

You should check that... yes that's part of it but, there's more to your First Amendment then that. Look at some SCOTUS case's on groups and organisations that have been brought up for not allowing membership.

The Rights.....not looking a state workers but, others covered by your NLRA (Wagner Act..that's the law where I am... and the Taft-Hartley Act)
I'll give you some hints:
Examples of employee rights include:

■Forming, or attempting to form, a union in your workplace;
■Joining a union whether the union is recognized by your employer or not;
■Assisting a union in organizing your fellow employees;
■Refusing to do any or all of these things.

The law also protects employees rights to act together, with or without a union, to improve working terms and conditions, including wages and benefits. These are known as protected concerted activities.

http://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-rights

Could.....could be used by the Wisconsin public workers for a court challenge.

Income tax rates.

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.pdf

Even some "Red States" have a high rate.

I've been working longer then most on this forum have been alive. I've worked in both union and non-union "shops"
All of the 'problem" places have been non-union.
By "problem" places I mean one that gave me silicosis and metal poisoning. ( got picked up on a pre-deployment med check before they became chronic)
Or the company that had my pay a "working fee" to sign off on time in type heavy equipment logs for a excavation company. (Needed the logs for my operators license)
Recession and no work so, back to school for a plastic tech ticket. (injection, blow moulding and thermoset)
Government placement for ticket qualification.
First place was a typical first job. A non-union Hell hole. smoke so thick it looked like a fog had rolled in. Dirty, unorganised, unmotivated but, the Conservatives were in power and passed the FTA. Plant moved to by god Alabama (and they are welcome to it) then moved to Mexico.
Next was a union plant. Clean, organised and motivated but, the Tory's are still in power....NAFTA... and the plant moves to Georgia.
Last plant was a union auto parts plant. Not as good as the second place but, WAY better then the first. Sold off and I got to transfer to an assembly plant.
Spent three years on a auto painters ticket and did that for ten years. Sold off to a "strip and flip" manpower cuts and I'm out on the floor.
The Conservatives are back in power and a crash.
"Your company wants our help? Match Toyota." We do, toyota cuts their workers wage... so much for matching.


As asked "What right do you have to make more then a non-union worker?"
As a union member, the same as a company. To make as much as the market will bear....and ten cents more.

Unions have placed me where I could pay for three kids to go to collage, with out them needing grants or loans. None of them work in or for a union. All of them have good, well paying jobs. One, at this time, is part owner of a school in SE Asia teaching ESL.

Last edited by Karbin (2011-03-11 15:45:39)

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

Well so far none of those four rights has been violated.

Newp.

11 Bravo wrote:

so..again

what gives you (union worker) the right to more than a non union worker?

except the market is the govt in this case.  and the market is broke. 


but forget that.  lets look at results.  our education sucks.  why would you expect more money or "rights" when you fail?

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

Karbin wrote:

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

Well so far none of those four rights has been violated.

Number 2

Nope... the WI legislature stripped them of collective bargaining rights. They didn't break up the unions.

The law also protects employees rights to act together, with or without a union, to improve working terms and conditions, including wages and benefits. These are known as protected concerted activities.

Karbin wrote:

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

Karbin wrote:

Number 2

Nope... the WI legislature stripped them of collective bargaining rights. They didn't break up the unions.

The law also protects employees rights to act together, with or without a union, to improve working terms and conditions, including wages and benefits. These are known as protected concerted activities.

not when the company is broke ffs.  you ever been laid off or had a company go tits up?

i mean it what world do you live?  company is broke.  you need to do what you have to do.

what right allows them to piss off work and break shit?