UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5182|Massachusetts, USA

-Sh1fty- wrote:

nuke California
fix'd
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5620|Ventura, California
I couldn't agree more with you Rukus
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6747|132 and Bush

Qaddafi sends 50 tanks, 120 trucks, planes to bombard Zawiyah. The regime’s been trying to recapture the city for days, mainly because it’s the closest rebel stronghold to Tripoli.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- … el_Gaddafi
“Here, it is chaos. Buildings completely crumbled, mosques brought down to ashes, blood flowing through the streets.

“No human should go through this… what kind of human would do this to another human?”

He added: “This is a completely full attack. Approximately 50 tanks have been bombarding the city, crushing everything in sight.

“It started at 10am today and still hasn’t finished. There are now a couple of aircraft hovering.”
US NATO envoy: A no-fly zone over Libya won’t work
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch … libya.html
U.S. Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder in a call with reporters Monday said that “the kinds of capabilities that are being used to attack the rebel forces and, indeed, the population will be largely unaffected by a no-fly zone,” Daalder said.

Daalder was not going rogue; he was voicing the skepticism many Obama administration officials have about the efficacy of the push. …

US officials say there was a significant decrease in both fighter and overall air activity over the weekend and, as Daalder put it, “the overall air activity has not been the deciding factor in the ongoing unrest; just as you stated, other things are really determining what’s happening on the ground.”

He underlined that “it’s important to understand that no-fly zones are more effective against fighters, but they really have a limited effect against the helicopters or the kind of ground operations that we’ve seen, which is why a no-fly zone, even if it were to be established, isn’t really going to impact what is happening there today.”
Xbone Stormsurgezz
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6557|'Murka

Another take on a Libyan NFZ and other options:

George Friedman wrote:

How a Libyan No-fly Zone Could Backfire

Calls are growing for a no-fly zone over Libya, but a power or coalition of powers willing to enforce one remains elusive.

In evaluating such calls, it is useful to remember that in war, Murphy’s Law always lurks. What can go wrong will go wrong, in Libya as in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Complications to Airstrikes

It has been pointed out that a no-fly zone is not an antiseptic act. In order to protect the aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone, one must begin by suppressing enemy air defenses. This in turn poses an intelligence problem. Precisely what are Libyan air defenses and where are they located? It is possible to assert that Libya has no effective air defenses and that an SEAD (suppression of enemy air defenses) attack is therefore unnecessary. But that makes assumptions that cannot be demonstrated without testing, and the test is dangerous. At the same time, collecting definitive intelligence on air defenses is not as easy as it might appear — particularly as the opposition and thieves alike have managed to capture heavy weapons and armored vehicles, meaning that air defense assets are on the move and under uncertain control.

Therefore, a no-fly zone would begin with airstrikes on known air defense sites. But it would likely continue with sustained patrols by SEAD aircraft armed with anti-radiation missiles poised to rapidly confront any subsequent threat that pops up. Keeping those aircraft on station for an extended period of time would be necessary, along with an unknown number of strikes. It is uncertain where the radars and missiles are located, and those airstrikes would not be without error. When search radars and especially targeting radars are turned on, the response must be instantaneous, while the radar is radiating (and therefore vulnerable) and before it can engage. That means there will be no opportunity to determine whether the sites are located in residential areas or close to public facilities such as schools or hospitals.

Previous regimes, hoping to garner international support, have deliberately placed their systems near such facilities to force what the international media would consider an atrocity. Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi does not seem like someone who would hesitate to cause civilian casualties for political advantage. Thus, the imposition of a no-fly zone could rapidly deteriorate into condemnations for killing civilians of those enforcing the zone ostensibly for humanitarian purposes. Indeed, attacks on air defenses could cause substantial casualties, turning a humanitarian action into one of considerable consequence in both humanitarian and political terms.

Airstrikes vs. Ground Operations

The more important question is what exactly a no-fly zone would achieve. Certainly, it would ground Gadhafi’s air force, but it would not come close to ending the fighting nor erode Gadhafi’s other substantial advantages. His forces appear to be better organized and trained than his opponents, who are politically divided and far less organized. Not long ago, Gadhafi largely was written off, but he has more than held his own — and he has held his own through the employment of ground combat forces. What remains of his air force has been used for limited harassment, so the imposition of a no-fly zone would not change the military situation on the ground. Even with a no-fly zone, Gadhafi would still be difficult for the rebels to defeat, and Gadhafi might still defeat the rebels.

The attractiveness of the no-fly zone in Iraq was that it provided the political illusion that steps were being taken, without creating substantial risks, or for that matter, actually doing substantial damage to Saddam Hussein’s control over Iraq. The no-fly zone remained in place for about 12 years without forcing change in Saddam’s policies, let alone regime change. The same is likely to be true in Libya. The no-fly zone is a low-risk action with little ability to change the military reality that creates an impression of decisive action. It does, as we argue, have a substantial downside, in that it entails costs and risks — including a high likelihood of at least some civilian casualties — without clear benefit or meaningful impact. The magnitude of the potential civilian toll is unknown, but its likelihood, oddly, is not in the hands of those imposing the no-fly zone, but in the hands of Gadhafi. Add to this human error and other failures inherent in war, and the outcome becomes unclear
.

A more significant action would be intervention on the ground, an invasion of Libya designed to destroy Gadhafi’s military and force regime change. This would require a substantial force — and it should be remembered from Iraq that it would require a substantial occupation force to stabilize and build a new regime to govern Libya. Unlike in Egypt, Gadhafi is the regime, and sectarian elements that have been kept in check under his regime already are coming to the fore. The ability of the country to provide and administer basic government functions is also unknown. And it must also be borne in mind that Gadhafi clearly has substantial support as well as opposition. His supporters will not go without a fight and could choose to wage some form of post-invasion resistance, as in Iraq. Thus, while the initial costs in terms of casualties might be low, the long-term costs might be much higher.

It should also be remembered that the same international community that condemned Saddam Hussein as a brutal dictator quite easily turned to condemn the United States both for deposing him and for the steps its military took in trying to deal with the subsequent insurgency. It is not difficult to imagine a situation where there is extended Libyan resistance to the occupying force followed by international condemnation of the counterinsurgency effort.

Having toppled a regime, it is difficult to simply leave. The idea that this would be a quick, surgical and short-term invasion is certainly one scenario, but it is neither certain nor even the most likely scenario. In the same sense, the casualties caused by the no-fly zone would be unknown. The difference is that while a no-fly zone could be terminated easily, it is unlikely that it would have any impact on ground operations. An invasion would certainly have a substantial impact but would not be terminable.

Stopping a civil war is viable if it can be done without increasing casualties beyond what they might be if the war ran its course. The no-fly zone likely does that, without ending the civil war. If properly resourced, the invasion option could end the civil war, but it opens the door to extended low-intensity conflict.

The National Interest

It is difficult to perceive the U.S. national interest in Libya. The interests of some European countries, like Italy, are more substantial, but it is not clear that they are prepared to undertake the burden without the United States.

We would argue that war as a humanitarian action should be undertaken only with the clear understanding that in the end it might cause more suffering than the civil war. It should also be undertaken with the clear understanding that the inhabitants might prove less than grateful, and the rest of the world would not applaud nearly as much as might be liked — and would be faster to condemn the occupier when things went wrong. Indeed, the recently formed opposition council based out of Benghazi — the same group that is leading the calls from eastern Libya for foreign airstrikes against Gadhafi’s air force — has explicitly warned against any military intervention involving troops on the ground.

In the end, the use of force must have the national interest in mind. And the historical record of armed humanitarian interventions is mixed at best.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6821|Canberra, AUS
FEOS, aren't you breaking copyright by reposting all these STRATFOR articles?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6557|'Murka

Spark wrote:

FEOS, aren't you breaking copyright by reposting all these STRATFOR articles?
Nope. So long as they are properly attributed, it is encouraged.

And that's only about 4 or 5 that I've posted, IIRC. I only post ones that have content relevant to the discussion at hand.

Butthole.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6252|eXtreme to the maX
STRATFOR is always funny.
Thus, the imposition of a no-fly zone could rapidly deteriorate into condemnations for killing civilians of those enforcing the zone ostensibly for humanitarian purposes. Indeed, attacks on air defenses could cause substantial casualties, turning a humanitarian action into one of considerable consequence in both humanitarian and political terms.
Enforcing a no-fly zone =/= taking out air defences, at least not right away.

Even if it did do civilians usually hang around air bases or anti-aircraft missile sites? In significant numbers?

The argument about civilians was never even mentioned when it came to enforcing the no-fly zone over Iraq.
It is difficult to perceive the U.S. national interest in Libya.
There we go.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-09 04:22:46)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6956|Nårvei

^^ The civilians are the ones fighting in this war Dilbert ...

And other nations than the US have greater interests in Libya ... Italy prolly the most!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6252|eXtreme to the maX

Varegg wrote:

^^ The civilians are the ones fighting in this war Dilbert ...
Do the civilians have fighter jets and anti-aircraft missile systems integrated with air-defence radar networks?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6956|Nårvei

Dilbert_X wrote:

Varegg wrote:

^^ The civilians are the ones fighting in this war Dilbert ...
Do the civilians have fighter jets and anti-aircraft missile systems integrated with air-defence radar networks?
No jets that I know of but they do have access to air-defence equipment yes ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6557|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

STRATFOR is always funny.
Thus, the imposition of a no-fly zone could rapidly deteriorate into condemnations for killing civilians of those enforcing the zone ostensibly for humanitarian purposes. Indeed, attacks on air defenses could cause substantial casualties, turning a humanitarian action into one of considerable consequence in both humanitarian and political terms.
Enforcing a no-fly zone =/= taking out air defences, at least not right away.

Even if it did do civilians usually hang around air bases or anti-aircraft missile sites? In significant numbers?

The argument about civilians was never even mentioned when it came to enforcing the no-fly zone over Iraq.
It is difficult to perceive the U.S. national interest in Libya.
There we go.
Nice to see you actually read it (not) and your clear understanding of air power doctrine, employment concepts, and historical facts always cut right to the heart of the matter.

Or not.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6557|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Varegg wrote:

^^ The civilians are the ones fighting in this war Dilbert ...
Do the civilians have fighter jets and anti-aircraft missile systems integrated with air-defence radar networks?
The rebels and Daffy both do, and both sides have people with the knowledge and skills to employ them. And, btw, the air defenses don't have to be integrated to pose a threat to those who are enforcing the NFZ. Autonomous-mode SAMs and AAA are dangerous in their own right, just slightly less so than ones cued by EW radars that aren't co-located.

But it's cute that you think you know what you're talking about.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6252|eXtreme to the maX
If "enforcing a no-fly zone" = "blowing away everything on the ground which could conceivably be used against patrol aircraft" then I'd say the doctrine is fucked up.

As I said, all this concern about civilians wasn't raised when enforcing the Iraq no-fly zone so why now?
What has suddenly changed?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6956|Nårvei

Dilbert_X wrote:

If "enforcing a no-fly zone" = "blowing away everything on the ground which could conceivably be used against patrol aircraft" then I'd say the doctrine is fucked up.

As I said, all this concern about civilians wasn't raised when enforcing the Iraq no-fly zone so why now?
What has suddenly changed?
Two very different scenarios ... in Iraq you didn't have a civil war with unskilled personel not knowing the difference between US and Iraqi planes operating AA equipment ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6836|Tampa Bay Florida
This shit is going to hit.  The fan.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6557|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

If "enforcing a no-fly zone" = "blowing away everything on the ground which could conceivably be used against patrol aircraft" then I'd say the doctrine is fucked up.

As I said, all this concern about civilians wasn't raised when enforcing the Iraq no-fly zone so why now?
What has suddenly changed?
1. That was never stated nor implied. What a ridiculously flawed logical leap.

2. It wasn't the case in Iraq. Nice revisionist history. As was stated in the article you clearly didn't read, bad people often site those assets near or on top of civilian sites to ensure that any response--which would be IAW international laws of armed conflict and applicable ROE for self-defense--would result in civilian casualties that could then be paraded in front of international media. Which would have been obvious...had you read the article. But you never do.

So the bottom-line is that nothing has suddenly changed. Which was the point.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6252|eXtreme to the maX
What wasn't the case in Iraq?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6557|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

What wasn't the case in Iraq?
all this concern about civilians wasn't raised when enforcing the Iraq no-fly zone so why now?
^This. Your assessment about the NFZ was incorrect. Which should have been obvious from what I said about it.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6145|...

CNN wrote:

Arab League unanimously backs Libya no-fly zone, asks U.N. Security Council to impose one, Oman's foreign minister says.
I'm a bit confused, why can't they impose one themselves?
inane little opines
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6533

Shocking wrote:

CNN wrote:

Arab League unanimously backs Libya no-fly zone, asks U.N. Security Council to impose one, Oman's foreign minister says.
I'm a bit confused, why can't they impose one themselves?
Because they have no experience, they don't want to wear out their planes, etc. In all honesty, they just want the Americans or the Europeans(who in turn want the Americans to do it) because none of them want to get involved, they just want to seem involved.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5383|Cleveland, Ohio

Shocking wrote:

CNN wrote:

Arab League unanimously backs Libya no-fly zone, asks U.N. Security Council to impose one, Oman's foreign minister says.
I'm a bit confused, why can't they impose one themselves?
cuz they want to blame the west
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5383|Cleveland, Ohio

Shocking wrote:

CNN wrote:

Arab League unanimously backs Libya no-fly zone, asks U.N. Security Council to impose one, Oman's foreign minister says.
not only no but fuck no
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6836|Tampa Bay Florida
So what happens if we stand by and watch this nutcase execute half the country?  I guess what I'm really asking is, what if we do not even have a no fly zone?  Is there not a potential for it to bite us in the ass? 

I mean, to a lot of people, it would look hypocritical.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5383|Cleveland, Ohio

Spearhead wrote:

So what happens if we stand by and watch this nutcase execute half the country?  I guess what I'm really asking is, what if we do not even have a no fly zone?  Is there not a potential for it to bite us in the ass? 

I mean, to a lot of people, it would look hypocritical.
too fucking bad.  enough crying over the years about the US butting out.  so i say we do it for a change.
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5848|College Park, MD

Spearhead wrote:

So what happens if we stand by and watch this nutcase execute half the country?  I guess what I'm really asking is, what if we do not even have a no fly zone?  Is there not a potential for it to bite us in the ass? 

I mean, to a lot of people, it would look hypocritical.
It's a bit of a predicament isn't it? I mean, on one hand I do think the US ought to stick to its own borders and not meddle around elsewhere unless provoked. But on the other hand, what if everyone had that sort of attitude? What happened to "never again"?
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