BF2S Forums Israel and Palestine

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You say every Israeli frowns upon those things, yet that's simply not the case. If it isn't a majority who approve of the action taken to secure Israel for the Jews, it's certainly close. Things like the Deir Yassin massacre and the King David hotel bombing are not condemned by all Israelis as you claim - and it is that mindset that is the biggest problem.

And how do you know? You've been there? Granted I was only there for 2 1/2 weeks and will be going back for another 2 1/2 in June, but I've spoken to probably hundreds of Israelis. One soldier I even became good friends with who is coming to NY at the end of May even called the situation in the West Bank similar to apartheid. Our tour guide called Irgun a terrorist organization. A business owner I met said he thinks the way the country was formed was not in the best terms and that the fact that any settlements are going on right now is disgusting.

I'd really like to know what basis you have for a comment like that. Again, not that 2 1/2 weeks is enough time to gauge the opinions of all Israelis, but every Israeli I met from every part of the country that I was able to discuss the situation with, whether it be in the Galil/Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/Negev, almost overwhelmingly was against any form of terror, is against settlements and wants to return to the '67 borders with the Golan Heights as long as the Palestinians 1) acknowledge Israel's existence 2) condemn terrorism 3) seek peace. As I mentioned, any Arab that wants to live in peace in Israel may, and that's why you even see Arabs in the Knesset.

What basis do I have for a statement like that? Other than time spent there, time spent with Israelis, reading Israeli media, being a member of various Israeli internet forums and speaking to/emailing people in Israel on a daily basis?

I'm sure the places you went to were full of lots of nice and reasonable moderate seeming Israelis. Try going out to the settlements in the OTs. It's there were everything becomes clear.

You seem to have a very blinkered one sided view of this whole situation.

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You say every Israeli frowns upon those things, yet that's simply not the case. If it isn't a majority who approve of the action taken to secure Israel for the Jews, it's certainly close. Things like the Deir Yassin massacre and the King David hotel bombing are not condemned by all Israelis as you claim - and it is that mindset that is the biggest problem.

And how do you know? You've been there? Granted I was only there for 2 1/2 weeks and will be going back for another 2 1/2 in June, but I've spoken to probably hundreds of Israelis. One soldier I even became good friends with who is coming to NY at the end of May even called the situation in the West Bank similar to apartheid. Our tour guide called Irgun a terrorist organization. A business owner I met said he thinks the way the country was formed was not in the best terms and that the fact that any settlements are going on right now is disgusting.

I'd really like to know what basis you have for a comment like that. Again, not that 2 1/2 weeks is enough time to gauge the opinions of all Israelis, but every Israeli I met from every part of the country that I was able to discuss the situation with, whether it be in the Galil/Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/Negev, almost overwhelmingly was against any form of terror, is against settlements and wants to return to the '67 borders with the Golan Heights as long as the Palestinians 1) acknowledge Israel's existence 2) condemn terrorism 3) seek peace. As I mentioned, any Arab that wants to live in peace in Israel may, and that's why you even see Arabs in the Knesset.

What basis do I have for a statement like that? Other than time spent there, time spent with Israelis, reading Israeli media, being a member of various Israeli internet forums and speaking to/emailing people in Israel on a daily basis?

I'm sure the places you went to were full of lots of nice and reasonable moderate seeming Israelis. Try going out to the settlements in the OTs. It's there were everything becomes clear.

You seem to have a very blinkered one sided view of this whole situation.

There is absolutely no way what I'd seen traveling throughout the country 3 months could be such a stark difference to what you've seen unless you've come in with an agenda. There was not and probably will never be one shred of evidence that any Israeli wouldn't condemn the Deir Yassin massacre. Especially considering it goes against the basic IDF doctrine of purity of arms.

AussieReaper wrote:

Terrorism isn't an existential threat to Israel.

It's not one to the United States either. I guess they shouldn't take any precautionary measures.

Last edited by Poseidon (2012-03-26 13:18:55)

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

What basis do I have for a statement like that? Other than time spent there, time spent with Israelis, reading Israeli media, being a member of various Israeli internet forums and speaking to/emailing people in Israel on a daily basis?

I'm sure the places you went to were full of lots of nice and reasonable moderate seeming Israelis. Try going out to the settlements in the OTs. It's there were everything becomes clear.

You seem to have a very blinkered one sided view of this whole situation.

There is absolutely no way what I'd seen traveling throughout the country 3 months could be such a stark difference to what you've seen unless you've come in with an agenda. There was not and probably will never be one shred of evidence that any Israeli wouldn't condemn the Deir Yassin massacre. Especially considering it goes against the basic IDF doctrine of purity of arms.

I'm struggling to follow your posts. What does the 3 months in the post above refer to?

Where did you go? Did you visit any settlements in the OTs?

The IDF - lol
The IDF was initially composed of the terrorists (2 of the 3 terror groups (the Irgun and Haganah - not Lehi) formed into what is now the IDF, any claims about purity of arms are bullshit).
The leader of the Irgun, the man behind the King David Hotel bombing, was later elected president of Israel.

There's no way you'd miss all this stuff unless you are very deliberately turning a blind eye.

So I've repeatedly said that Israel was obviously not formed in the rosiest of situations - as if ANY country ever has been - and you continue to act like that matters today in the current government and military. It's almost funny. Almost.

No I didn't visit any settlements but I was all over the country and spoke with people of different backgrounds and cultures. I don't see why you'd need to go into the settlements - people I've already said are radicals - to determine how regular Israelis think about terrorism.

So you've basically been trying to push the point that the settlers are radicals who support terrorism? Congratulations, I've always thought the same.

And wow, Menachem Begin, who brokered one of the biggest peace deals EVER, one that still exists today, is your reasoning for thinking Israelis support terrorism? That is too funny.

Last edited by Poseidon (2012-03-26 13:47:46)

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

I'm struggling to follow your posts. What does the 3 months in the post above refer to?

Where did you go? Did you visit any settlements in the OTs?

The IDF - lol
The IDF was initially composed of the terrorists (2 of the 3 terror groups (the Irgun and Haganah - not Lehi) formed into what is now the IDF, any claims about purity of arms are bullshit).
The leader of the Irgun, the man behind the King David Hotel bombing, was later elected president of Israel.

There's no way you'd miss all this stuff unless you are very deliberately turning a blind eye.

So I've repeatedly said that Israel was obviously not formed in the rosiest of situations - as if ANY country ever has been - and you continue to act like that matters today in the current government and military. It's almost funny. Almost.

No I didn't visit any settlements but I was all over the country and spoke with people of different backgrounds and cultures. I don't see why you'd need to go into the settlements - people I've already said are radicals - to determine how regular Israelis think about terrorism.

So you've basically been trying to push the point that the settlers are radicals who support terrorism? Congratulations, I've always thought the same.

And wow, Menachem Begin, who brokered one of the biggest peace deals EVER, one that still exists today, is your reasoning for thinking Israelis support terrorism? That is too funny.

I still don't understand your previous post. Could you clarify what the 3 months is alluding to?

My reasoning for thinking that Israelis support terrorism/illegal governmental action is that: virtually every Israeli I've ever asked about the King David hotel bombing has thought it was a good thing (that's about 50, maybe 10 of those from settlements - 2 of those I asked condemned it, in the mildest possible terms); Israelis predominantly vote in hard line governments who support expansion of settlements in the OTs and

I first became interested in this topic after a friend of mine (from London) went back to Israel to do his national service. He came back horrified and is now the staunchest anti-Zionist I know. His stories (many of which he had photos and video footage to go with) really opened my eyes to what is going on there.

If Bin Laden had brokered a peace deal or two, would that have excused him from his previous actions? Would you turn a blind eye to those too? Would you think a country who elected him as Prime Minister was full of terrorist sympathisers or would you think they'd probably just picked the best man for the job?

There is no logic to your posts. Also, you still haven't said what that the 3 months bit in your post relates to - what is it about?

It was a typo. My trip was 3 months ago.

I just think it's funny that you're using one event from over 50 years ago to define how a nation views terrorism. Jesus, right after the even actually happened it was widely condemned, even though the first Prime Minister of Israel called the attack disgusting, that's your indication that an entire people support terrorism. I've never seen so much proof in my life. I mean, it's not like there's a group of people who actually voted in people who commit terrorist attacks weekly out there for you to criticize. Nah. Gotta harp on an event that was widely condemned after it happened in 1946.

any moves to freeze settlement activity are met with a public backlash.

So why is it most Israelis are in favor of dismantling settlements? I guess your sampling of people is a bit off, eh? And even older polls which trend more towards in favor of the settlers state that most would be in favor of dismantling settlements if it meant peace with the Palestinians.

Netanyahu is an asshole, no doubt. I can't stand him. But he's loved because he comes off to Israelis as someone who will not stand for any terrorism nor will he stand for threats from the Iranians. He's a nationalist and that appeals to people. But he's never sent someone with a bomb belt onto a crowded city bus filled with women and children.

This entire argument is basically you saying "oh well they started off comprised of..." while I talk about the current situation. It must be nice living in the past and using that as your argument for how things are today.

Last edited by Poseidon (2012-03-26 14:38:52)

AussieReaper wrote:

Hey guys, most Israeli's are actually against the wall, the settlements, the war crimes, the stolen land, the humanitarian crisis! So it's totally all ok and will work out cause we stopped some bombings!


Your logic is amazing, Pos.

You're the one who basically just said terrorism is not a big deal, bud.

Poseidon wrote:

Netanyahu is an asshole, no doubt. I can't stand him. But he's loved because he comes off to Israelis as someone who will not stand for any terrorism nor will he stand for threats from the Iranians. He's a nationalist and that appeals to people. But he's never sent someone with a bomb belt onto a crowded city bus filled with women and children.

Correct, he sends F16s laden with uranium tipped high explosive laser guided bombs to drop on women and children, not suicide bombers, how very civilised.

This entire argument is basically you saying "oh well they started off comprised of..." while I talk about the current situation. It must be nice living in the past and using that as your argument for how things are today.

Its an ongoing situation. It would be convenient for you to forget all the Israeli atrocities right up to the present day and focus only on the Palestinians terrorist activity, but no-ones stupid enough to fall for that.

How to stop suicide bombers in short term- Preemptively kill them all. Is that the answer you're looking for?

eat a pizza

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

How to stop suicide bombers in short term- Preemptively kill them all. Is that the answer you're looking for?

No im looking for a reasoned alternative. Considering how diabolical the wall is, what is the obvious and humane way of doing it?

At the moment it all sounds pretty hypocritical considering the western worlds involvements in conflicts all over the place for lesser reasons.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2012-03-27 16:11:10)

Remember when Gaza was more than a mere strip?

so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.

Cybargs wrote:

so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.

If someone steals your land its fine to kill them, yes. Thats been how the world has worked since forever.

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.

If someone steals your land its fine to kill them, yes. Thats been how the world has worked since forever.

bit different attacking a formal military than attacking a civilian population.

this shits just as stupid as the balkans.

so which is that israel are doing? oh, right.