BF2S Forums Israel and Palestine

FEOS wrote:

If genocide and/or ethnic cleansing of the arab population were occurring, the population increase of that group would not be greater than that of the group that was committing genocide/ethnic cleansing (Jews). It's quite simple.

AussieReaper wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Palestinian civilians are being shelled and their homes destroyed again and again. Why? Because they are Palestinian constantly firing rockets. Israel then blames the Palestinians Militants and claims they were using human shields. Palestinians are displaced out of their homes, which are then bulldozed and then walls erected to keep them out.

It's pretty black and white. They are persecuted attacked because they are Palestinian their homes are being used by militants, and displaced when they have no homes to return to and are forceable removed.

Corrected..

Bombing civilians to target militants?

What a great strategy.

AussieReaper wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Your defense for Israel was that the Palestinians are not refugees because-

"Refugee" status is debatable, particularly when "camps" have become self-sustaining cities in their own right in many cases. All of which is irrelevant to the argument: "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" both require a decrease in the population of a given race/ethnic class.


But "self sustaining city" does not change the fact that are refugee camps. Nazi concentration camps were self sustaining. Some even produced supplies for the war effort... What are you basing the self sustaining on anyway? The fact they have food?

You also said -
That group (Palestinians) is actually increasing at a rate greater than the group that is supposedly inflicting "genocide" and/or "ethnic cleansing" upon them in the area where this is supposed to be occurring (Israel). Therefore, neither of those acts can be occurring.

Your own argument is that because the population increased no genocide is happening. Does it require a net drop in population before it becomes genocide? Is there a magic number that must be reached?


I'm not putting words into your mouth. Your argument against the murder of civilians is incredible.

For the first part, at what point do you call somebody a refugee? When they have created a permanent "shelter" and live in it to all extents and purposes, is this not just called living?

Under the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees of 1951, a refugee is defined in Article 1A as a person who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country"

So please, explain to me how Palestinians who have been forceably removed from their homes, have a fear of persecution for simply being Palestinian are not considered refugees under your own selective opinion.

AussieReaper wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Im struggling to think of any Genocides where the was a net increase in the population?

As there seems to be a permanent reference to Nazism lets see what happened to the population of Eastern Europe under the Nazis? IIRC it wasnt increasing..

So by your logic, the Nazi death camps weren't really that bad until the Jewish population started to fall at a rate greater than the birth rate?

AussieReaper wrote:

Killing cannot be justified by population increases.

No matter how you try to twist that around in your head.

wiki wrote:

a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-25 05:43:04)

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

So in other words decreasing the size of the group... or at the very least stopping the group from getting any larger? Still doesnt appear to be happening..

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

So in other words decreasing the size of the group... or at the very least stopping the group from getting any larger? Still doesnt appear to be happening..

As I already pointed out, its as much about intent as anything.

The Israelis wouldn't care if the Palestinians had nowhere else to go.

Last edited by lowing (2011-03-26 07:32:33)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Are there more jews alive now than in 1939?

If there are more does it mean Hitler didn't perpetrate a genocide, or didn't even try to?

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Are there more jews alive now than in 1939?

If there are more does it mean Hitler didn't perpetrate a genocide, or didn't even try to?

When the genocide was happening, did the population of Jews in Europe increase or decrease?

Do you see now how fail that argument is?

AussieReaper wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Are there more jews alive now than in 1939?

If there are more does it mean Hitler didn't perpetrate a genocide, or didn't even try to?

When the genocide was happening, did the population of Jews in Europe increase or decrease?

Do you see now how fail that argument is?

You're the one saying that it is or isn't genocide based on the birth rate...

Age structure

0–14 years: 38% (male 469,754/female 445,999)
15–64 years: 58.3% (male 719,267/female 684,790)
65 years and over: 3.6% (male 36,606/female 51,265) (2008 est.)

Age structure

0-14 years: 44.7% (male 343,988/female 325,856)
15-64 years: 52.7% (male 403,855/female 386,681)
65 years and over: 2.7% (male 16,196/female 23,626) (2008 est.)

Age Structure

(2008)

    * 0–14 years: 28.4%
    * 15–64 years: 61.9%
    * 65 years and over: 9.7%

Dilbert_X wrote:

Is the population of Palestinians in what is now called Israel higher or lower than it used to be?
Is it still decreasing?

Are the Israelis continuing to take steps to cut the Palestinian population in Israel?

There you go.

Dilbert_X wrote:

And the Palestinian population in Israel?
How has that been doing over the past 60 years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Population_Growth_Rate wrote:

Population Growth Rate

(2008)

    * Total population growth rate: 1.9%[22]

During the 1990s, the Jewish population growth rate was about 3% per year, as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. There is also a high population growth rate among certain Jewish groups, especially adherents of Haredi Judaism.

The growth rate of the Arab population in Israel is 2.6%, while the growth rate of the Jewish population in Israel is 1.7%. The growth rate of both the Jewish and Arab population has slowed from 3.8% in 1999 to 2.6% in 2008 for Arab and 2.7% to 1.7% for the Jewish population. The fastest growing segment of population are Arab Muslims with the latest growth rate of 2.8% for 2008.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Population_Growth_Rate wrote:

Crude death rate

6.18 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)

There were a total of 38,666 deaths in 2006. (39,026 in 2005 & 37,688 in 2000). Of this 33,568 were Jews (34,031 in 2005 & 33,421 in 2000). 3,078 were Muslims (2,968 in 2005 & 2,683 in 2000). 360 were Druze (363 in 2005 & 305 in 2000). 712 were Christian (686 in 2005 & 666 in 2000).[

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-03-28 08:35:16)

Israel informed the 15 members of the United Nations Security Council last week, as well as several other prominent European Union countries, that if the Palestinian Authority persists in its efforts to gain recognition in September as a state within the 1967 borders, Israel would respond with a series of unilateral steps of its own.

Senior Foreign Ministry officials said the ministry's director general, Rafael Barak, sent a classified cable last week to more than 30 Israeli embassies, directing them to lodge a diplomatic protest at the highest possible level in response to the Palestinian efforts to gain international recognition for statehood at the UN General Assembly session in September.