BF2S Forums Looking for Rush, Haninty counter Radio from the Left - Any Ideas ?

11 Bravo wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

usmarine wrote:

and mcminty picks on shifty for saying stupid shit.

Its stupider to stick your head in the sand.

moran

The Tug Boat Comapany ? what about it ?

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well I offered the argument that Islam's period of discovery was mainly due to conquering and by non-muslims. Sorry if that argument isn't gpod enough.

But that's simply not true. Lots of conquering did go on then (but I note you ignore the fact the Muslim invaders were often welcomed by those they were invading), but it's not even remotely accurate to claim that was just because the Muslims were running around invading people and stealing their ideas. It was to do with creating an environment where these discoveries could be made.

Religious freedom was promoted, there are a list of Muslim polymaths as long as your arm who were discovering all sorts, the Muslims came up with environmentalism back then, made huge advances in agriculture and economics - the list goes on and on.

lowing wrote:

Because I am referring to the here and now, and here and now, literally as we we speak, Islam is not doing much to prove its case with its oppression of women STILL, gays STILL, honor killings, stonings etc...

I wouldn't say Islam, backward horrible countries (and some immigrants from these countries) - many of which have Islam as their main religion.

Really? Do tell of all of these countries that welcomed invasion of Islam and force fed a new religion. Tell me more how Islam has historically welcomed new religions as equals in their Islamic society.

OK. From the Muslim Conquests page of Wikipedia:

Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria were dissatisfied and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces, largely because of religious conflict in both empires.

Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria.

Force fed a new religion? I'd say that everything they were doing fits quite neatly with the picture I've been portraying of the Islamic golden age being due to being in the right environment to promote advancement, rather than the picture you paint of all the advancement being due to bloodthirsty conquest and despite the influence of Islam, not because of it.

Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[9][10]

Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[4] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well I offered the argument that Islam's period of discovery was mainly due to conquering and by non-muslims. Sorry if that argument isn't gpod enough.

But that's simply not true. Lots of conquering did go on then (but I note you ignore the fact the Muslim invaders were often welcomed by those they were invading), but it's not even remotely accurate to claim that was just because the Muslims were running around invading people and stealing their ideas. It was to do with creating an environment where these discoveries could be made.

Religious freedom was promoted, there are a list of Muslim polymaths as long as your arm who were discovering all sorts, the Muslims came up with environmentalism back then, made huge advances in agriculture and economics - the list goes on and on.


I wouldn't say Islam, backward horrible countries (and some immigrants from these countries) - many of which have Islam as their main religion.

Really? Do tell of all of these countries that welcomed invasion of Islam and force fed a new religion. Tell me more how Islam has historically welcomed new religions as equals in their Islamic society.

OK. From the Muslim Conquests page of Wikipedia:

Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria were dissatisfied and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces, largely because of religious conflict in both empires.

Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria.

Force fed a new religion? I'd say that everything they were doing fits quite neatly with the picture I've been portraying of the Islamic golden age being due to being in the right environment to promote advancement, rather than the picture you paint of all the advancement being due to bloodthirsty conquest and despite the influence of Islam, not because of it.

Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[9][10]

Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[4] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason

Putting it in context Berster, from what I read they didn't welcome Islam the welcomed intervention between the other 2 empires tearing the lands apart on their own, nothing more.

Also from what I read the Islamic scholars and scientists were largely considered heretics by Islam. Hardly making Islam responsible for any discoveries and advancements. They were done so outside of favor from Islam and at risk of death, ( I suspect just like anything else done outside  the Islamic faith)

Spark wrote:

They are considered heretics today but the insane whackjobs.

Not back then. They were prized citizens in their day.

go read, cuz from what I have read, no they weren't.

How the fuck could so many major scientific discoveries, developments and achievements come in a society that views science as heretical? That's just plain retarded.

Yeah, but he was one guy.

Not, what, ten? Fifteen? FFS they invented modern science. And he was a mate of the Pope's anyway, so it wasn't that terrible.

Spark wrote:

Yeah, but he was one guy.

Not, what, ten? Fifteen? FFS they invented modern science. And he was a mate of the Pope's anyway, so it wasn't that terrible.

The pope actually gave him permission to write the book that got him in so much trouble. Too bad he portrayed the pope as a simpleton (simplicio).. too bad for Galileo that is.

yea.. http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 1#p3438261 . if you're interested. Pretty short tho .. low in actual content

I knew this more from anecdotes to be fair. I mean, sticking a pair of tweezers in your eye socket just to see what would happen... wtf?

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Really? Do tell of all of these countries that welcomed invasion of Islam and force fed a new religion. Tell me more how Islam has historically welcomed new religions as equals in their Islamic society.

OK. From the Muslim Conquests page of Wikipedia:

Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria were dissatisfied and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces, largely because of religious conflict in both empires.

Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria.

Force fed a new religion? I'd say that everything they were doing fits quite neatly with the picture I've been portraying of the Islamic golden age being due to being in the right environment to promote advancement, rather than the picture you paint of all the advancement being due to bloodthirsty conquest and despite the influence of Islam, not because of it.

Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[9][10]

Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[4] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason

Putting it in context Berster, from what I read they didn't welcome Islam the welcomed intervention between the other 2 empires tearing the lands apart on their own, nothing more.

Which other two empires were those then?

The problems they had before were due to religious clashes, clashes which the Islamic acceptance of all religions put a stop to (hence them being glad to be invaded).

lowing wrote:

Also from what I read the Islamic scholars and scientists were largely considered heretics by Islam. Hardly making Islam responsible for any discoveries and advancements. They were done so outside of favor from Islam and at risk of death, ( I suspect just like anything else done outside  the Islamic faith)

Where did you read this? Care to post any evidence this was the case, since it completely contradicts all the quotes I've included above.

Even looking at vehemently anti-Islamic sites such as Islam Watch, you see acknowledgement of the factors I've outlined which led to the Islamic Golden age being possible.

In conclusion, I can unambiguously summarize the fact that the so called Islamic Golden Age was not any product of Islamic scriptural knowledge, nor it was due to any degree of devoutness of religion Islam, rather it was due to short-lived opportunity of freethinking and rationalism induced by the famous Mu’tazillites and facilitated by the liberal minded Abbasid Kingdom.

What was the ideology of Mu’tazila which actually opened the window for rational thinkers? The defining philosophy of Mu’tazila was freewill, rationalism and scientific thought which was rooted in the Hellenic-age Greek philosophy. Mu’tazila ideology was greatly promoted during Abbasid Caliphate (8-13th century) but after that Islamic re-incarnation by Ahadiths collection by Muslim al –hajjaj, al-Bukhari, Abu daud, al-Timidi and rise of islamic zealots by the leadership of Imam Ghazali put the final nail to the coffin of defeated Mu’tazillites—leading to the end of enlightenment during 13th century and subsequently rise of Islamic devoutness (darkness of close minds and superstitions) in the Islamic world, which ended the so called Islamic Golden Age for good.

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMi … en-Age.htm

You can see the spin they try to put on it, to cast this golden age as a blip (a 6 century blip) in Islams otherwise bloody and intolerant history. But even they do not deny the clear facts, that the Abbasid caliphate (the area shown below) provided an environment where scientific and philosophical advancement were promoted.


It wasn't limited to the Caliphate either. Muslim Spain was extremely civilised and people of different religions all got along and prospered.

Islamic Spain was a multi-cultural mix of the people of three great monotheistic religions: Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

Although Christians and Jews lived under restrictions, for much of the time the three groups managed to get along together, and to some extent, to benefit from the presence of each other.

It brought a degree of civilisation to Europe that matched the heights of the Roman Empire and the Italian Renaissance.

The Andulasian golden age outlasted the golden age in the Caliphate (which ended in the 13th century, whereas this went on until the 15th century). This shows this was not a golden age brought about by a single ruling dynasty (the Abassids) as this was brought about by Amir Abd al-Rahman (certainly not an Abassid - in fact they clashed several times). There was a fair bit of religious freedom in Andulasia, not compared to todays standards, but in comparison to other countries in that era, the freedoms given to non-Muslims were very progressive:

    * they were not forced to live in ghettoes or other special locations
    * they were not slaves
    * they were not prevented from following their faith
    * they were not forced to convert or die under Muslim rule
    * they were not banned from any particular ways of earning a living; they often took on jobs shunned by Muslims;
          o these included unpleasant work such as tanning and butchery
          o but also pleasant jobs such as banking and dealing in gold and silver
    * they could work in the civil service of the Islamic rulers
    * Jews and Christians were able to contribute to society and culture

Last edited by Bertster7 (2011-02-01 06:40:37)

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

OK. From the Muslim Conquests page of Wikipedia:


Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria.

Force fed a new religion? I'd say that everything they were doing fits quite neatly with the picture I've been portraying of the Islamic golden age being due to being in the right environment to promote advancement, rather than the picture you paint of all the advancement being due to bloodthirsty conquest and despite the influence of Islam, not because of it.

Putting it in context Berster, from what I read they didn't welcome Islam the welcomed intervention between the other 2 empires tearing the lands apart on their own, nothing more.

Which other two empires were those then?

The problems they had before were due to religious clashes, clashes which the Islamic acceptance of all religions put a stop to (hence them being glad to be invaded).

lowing wrote:

Also from what I read the Islamic scholars and scientists were largely considered heretics by Islam. Hardly making Islam responsible for any discoveries and advancements. They were done so outside of favor from Islam and at risk of death, ( I suspect just like anything else done outside  the Islamic faith)

Where did you read this? Care to post any evidence this was the case, since it completely contradicts all the quotes I've included above.

Even looking at vehemently anti-Islamic sites such as Islam Watch, you see acknowledgement of the factors I've outlined which led to the Islamic Golden age being possible.

In conclusion, I can unambiguously summarize the fact that the so called Islamic Golden Age was not any product of Islamic scriptural knowledge, nor it was due to any degree of devoutness of religion Islam, rather it was due to short-lived opportunity of freethinking and rationalism induced by the famous Mu’tazillites and facilitated by the liberal minded Abbasid Kingdom.

What was the ideology of Mu’tazila which actually opened the window for rational thinkers? The defining philosophy of Mu’tazila was freewill, rationalism and scientific thought which was rooted in the Hellenic-age Greek philosophy. Mu’tazila ideology was greatly promoted during Abbasid Caliphate (8-13th century) but after that Islamic re-incarnation by Ahadiths collection by Muslim al –hajjaj, al-Bukhari, Abu daud, al-Timidi and rise of islamic zealots by the leadership of Imam Ghazali put the final nail to the coffin of defeated Mu’tazillites—leading to the end of enlightenment during 13th century and subsequently rise of Islamic devoutness (darkness of close minds and superstitions) in the Islamic world, which ended the so called Islamic Golden Age for good.

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMi … en-Age.htm

You can see the spin they try to put on it, to cast this golden age as a blip (a 6 century blip) in Islams otherwise bloody and intolerant history. But even they do not deny the clear facts, that the Abbasid caliphate (the area shown below) provided an environment where scientific and philosophical advancement were promoted.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … ids850.png

It wasn't limited to the Caliphate either. Muslim Spain was extremely civilised and people of different religions all got along and prospered.

Islamic Spain was a multi-cultural mix of the people of three great monotheistic religions: Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

Although Christians and Jews lived under restrictions, for much of the time the three groups managed to get along together, and to some extent, to benefit from the presence of each other.

It brought a degree of civilisation to Europe that matched the heights of the Roman Empire and the Italian Renaissance.

The Andulasian golden age outlasted the golden age in the Caliphate (which ended in the 13th century, whereas this went on until the 15th century). This shows this was not a golden age brought about by a single ruling dynasty (the Abassids) as this was brought about by Amir Abd al-Rahman (certainly not an Abassid - in fact they clashed several times). There was a fair bit of religious freedom in Andulasia, not compared to todays standards, but in comparison to other countries in that era, the freedoms given to non-Muslims were very progressive:

    * they were not forced to live in ghettoes or other special locations
    * they were not slaves
    * they were not prevented from following their faith
    * they were not forced to convert or die under Muslim rule
    * they were not banned from any particular ways of earning a living; they often took on jobs shunned by Muslims;
          o these included unpleasant work such as tanning and butchery
          o but also pleasant jobs such as banking and dealing in gold and silver
    * they could work in the civil service of the Islamic rulers
    * Jews and Christians were able to contribute to society and culture

Go back and read your source, just before you quoted.

Your paragraphs you highlite are a direct contradiction to what is not highlited.

"In conclusion, I can unambiguously summarize the fact that the so called Islamic Golden Age was not any product of Islamic scriptural knowledge, nor it was due to any degree of devoutness of religion Islam".

Also,
"Although Christians and Jews lived under restrictions"... Tells me they were considered inferior to Islam. Tells me they were considered inferior to Islam, and that these discoveries and advancements were gunna happen with or without Islamic influence.

"There were many other important individual philosophers in the Islamic world during the period of the Abbasid Caliphate, and various esoteric schools. In this Islamic setting, philosophical ideas were frequently bound up with those of religion and politics, which often meant that it was expedient for groups of like-minded scholars to come together in secretive associations."


Now this does not take away from Muslim scholar contribution, but it does reflex their need to do so out of favor with Islam as a whole. 

taken from http://www.patterninislamicart.com/back … tribution/

Last edited by lowing (2011-02-01 17:14:59)

Dilbert_X wrote:

So anyway, how many great scientific advances have come from the mormons?

they like to crow about television here, they even named a mountain "Farnsworth Peak". it's covered with tv antenna's . . .

they like to crow about television here, they even named a mountain "Farnsworth Peak". it's covered with tv antenna's . . .

Thats an invention, not a scientific advance.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-02-01 18:16:42)