Do I really gotta pull quotes again?Spark wrote:
I repeat: I am not saying that Islam ie the Koran encourages scientific knowledge, enlightenment and social progress particularly. But by exactly the same token, it does not particularly encourage murder, terrorism and misogyny.
That's the kind of thing books are written on. Not going to answer it now at 1am.So with all of Islam,s stand alone advancements, where has it been for the past 800 years, and how on earth did it wind up with suicide bombings, oppression, and honor killings?
Last edited by Spark (2011-01-28 05:47:37)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
My position has been fairly consistent. Can't speak for everyone else.lowing wrote:
Do I really gotta pull quotes again?Spark wrote:
I repeat: I am not saying that Islam ie the Koran encourages scientific knowledge, enlightenment and social progress particularly. But by exactly the same token, it does not particularly encourage murder, terrorism and misogyny.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Of course, because in Christian nations in that era (Islamic golden age) gays weren't persecuted in slightest and women were all working as doctors and scientists.lowing wrote:
yes, or does the oppression of women and gays, or non Muslims in Islamic culture not give you a hint?Bertster7 wrote:
Why "especially Islam"? Can you justify that point?lowing wrote:
I hope I understood you correctly,but religion as a whole is a road block, not a catalyst for any sort discovery. Religion especially Islam does not encourage outside the box thinking therefore can not take credit for any discoveries under its rule.
In what way, particularly in the period you are discussing, is Islam more restrictive of free thinking and innovation than Christianity?
lol yeah in THAT era. How about now?Bertster7 wrote:
Of course, because in Christian nations in that era (Islamic golden age) gays weren't persecuted in slightest and women were all working as doctors and scientists.lowing wrote:
yes, or does the oppression of women and gays, or non Muslims in Islamic culture not give you a hint?Bertster7 wrote:
Why "especially Islam"? Can you justify that point?
In what way, particularly in the period you are discussing, is Islam more restrictive of free thinking and innovation than Christianity?
No one here is talking about now. You're the one who started talking about the Islamic golden age, stick to the point.lowing wrote:
lol yeah in THAT era. How about now?Bertster7 wrote:
Of course, because in Christian nations in that era (Islamic golden age) gays weren't persecuted in slightest and women were all working as doctors and scientists.lowing wrote:
yes, or does the oppression of women and gays, or non Muslims in Islamic culture not give you a hint?
actually I was not. The Islamic golden age was offered up as proof for how great Islam is.Bertster7 wrote:
No one here is talking about now. You're the one who started talking about the Islamic golden age, stick to the point.lowing wrote:
lol yeah in THAT era. How about now?Bertster7 wrote:
Of course, because in Christian nations in that era (Islamic golden age) gays weren't persecuted in slightest and women were all working as doctors and scientists.
Honestly, who made that assertion? Maybe I skimmed over it or something.lowing wrote:
actually I was not. The Islamic golden age was offered up as proof for how great Islam is.Bertster7 wrote:
No one here is talking about now. You're the one who started talking about the Islamic golden age, stick to the point.lowing wrote:
lol yeah in THAT era. How about now?
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 4#p3438494SenorToenails wrote:
Honestly, who made that assertion? Maybe I skimmed over it or something.lowing wrote:
actually I was not. The Islamic golden age was offered up as proof for how great Islam is.Bertster7 wrote:
No one here is talking about now. You're the one who started talking about the Islamic golden age, stick to the point.
So you did completely miss the point. Good to see my efforts are bearing fruit
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I don;t think I missed your point at all. I am just not sure I agree with it. Ya see, it is not the victims that are saying Islam is to blame, it is the attackers saying Islam is the reason. Do not blame the victims for taking the criminals at their word.Spark wrote:
So you did completely miss the point. Good to see my efforts are bearing fruit
You wanna tell me that you re killing women and children in the name of your religion, fine I believe you, and by the way..........you and your religion suck ass!!
Last edited by lowing (2011-01-29 05:09:03)
Of course, killing women and children in the name of peace and freedom is so much better.
Fuck Israel
Well if you can point out to me any sanctioned US mission that purposely target innocent women and children I would be an a better position to accept your observation.................or......were you just trying to be a smart ass?Dilbert_X wrote:
Of course, killing women and children in the name of peace and freedom is so much better.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.lowing wrote:
Well if you can point out to me any sanctioned US mission that purposely target innocent women and children I would be an a better position to accept your observation.................or......were you just trying to be a smart ass?Dilbert_X wrote:
Of course, killing women and children in the name of peace and freedom is so much better.
That and the bombing of Laos, free-fire zones in Vietnam, incendiary bombing of Japanese cities etc.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-01-29 03:38:37)
Fuck Israel
Incendiary bombing of Japanese cities is a bit more gray area than the urban area bombing that all the Allies did over Germany IMO. Dresden, Hamburg etc.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I'd say they were about equal, still wrong though.
OTOH The Japanese never bombed US civilians whereas the Germans did.
OTOH The Japanese never bombed US civilians whereas the Germans did.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-01-29 03:51:20)
Fuck Israel
More from of a lack of capability than anything else. Bit hard to get bombers across the Pacific Ocean, you know. They certainly tried quite hard though, and came up with some fairly novel attempts.
In any case I'm always extremely hesitant making strong moral/ethical judgements on anything during the meat of the Second World War simply because in such a state of total war (beyond obvious stuff like mistreatment of POWs, genocide etc), the line between good/bad becomes extremely blurred when by far the most ethical thing to do is to end the war as quick as humanly possible.
In any case I'm always extremely hesitant making strong moral/ethical judgements on anything during the meat of the Second World War simply because in such a state of total war (beyond obvious stuff like mistreatment of POWs, genocide etc), the line between good/bad becomes extremely blurred when by far the most ethical thing to do is to end the war as quick as humanly possible.
Last edited by Spark (2011-01-29 03:58:18)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Dilbert, if you're going to bitch about the americans bombing japanese cities during WW2 I'd like you to bitch about the soviets, the brits, the germans and all sorts of resistances in the time period equally. If you cannot understand why they did what they did during WW2 and accept it you obviously need to try harder to understand the mindset of the people after going through the terror that was 1939-1945.
It's ridiculous to assume that it would've been "right" to commence an invasion into japan and lose millions upon millions of soldiers / citizens on both sides. More civillians would have died and more soldiers.
Also, during both time periods they didn't have anything even resembling a laser-guided bomb. Definitely not in Vietnam anyway, and both armies were made up of mostly conscripts - people who did not want to be there, coupled with little control due to the fact that the military didn't have enough surveillance to keep everyone and everything in check making the collateral damage much higher.
What's more, it's retarded to hold the US responsible now for what happened in a completely different time period. The US as it is now does not target civillians. Why aren't you going to walk up to a german instead and call him a nazi or walk up to a russian and tell him all about Stalin?
It's ridiculous to assume that it would've been "right" to commence an invasion into japan and lose millions upon millions of soldiers / citizens on both sides. More civillians would have died and more soldiers.
Also, during both time periods they didn't have anything even resembling a laser-guided bomb. Definitely not in Vietnam anyway, and both armies were made up of mostly conscripts - people who did not want to be there, coupled with little control due to the fact that the military didn't have enough surveillance to keep everyone and everything in check making the collateral damage much higher.
What's more, it's retarded to hold the US responsible now for what happened in a completely different time period. The US as it is now does not target civillians. Why aren't you going to walk up to a german instead and call him a nazi or walk up to a russian and tell him all about Stalin?
Last edited by dayarath (2011-01-29 04:09:47)
inane little opines
Oh so the japanese wouldn't have done to the americans as they did to the rest of Asia if they were given the chance?Dilbert_X wrote:
OTOH The Japanese never bombed US civilians whereas the Germans did.
You are so unbelievably ignorant and nit-picking regarding history it's unbelievable.
inane little opines
This was the question:
The US does not have that argument.
Much of the British and Soviet bombing of German cities was in retaliation for german bombing of cities, there was at least equivalence.Well if you can point out to me any sanctioned US mission that purposely target innocent women and children I would be an a better position to accept your observation.
The US does not have that argument.
Fuck Israel
Not to mention how the japs treated surrendering populations.dayarath wrote:
Oh so the japanese wouldn't have done to the americans as they did to the rest of Asia if they were given the chance?Dilbert_X wrote:
OTOH The Japanese never bombed US civilians whereas the Germans did.
You are so unbelievably ignorant and nit-picking regarding history it's unbelievable.
i think we should stop talking to trollbert
OK, and what have you done to counter that argument? Not a lot from what I see.lowing wrote:
actually I was not. The Islamic golden age was offered up as proof for how great Islam is.Bertster7 wrote:
No one here is talking about now. You're the one who started talking about the Islamic golden age, stick to the point.lowing wrote:
lol yeah in THAT era. How about now?
If arguing that Islam was more restrictive to progress than Christianity through that era, the points about women and gays are not relevant.
So, how do you justify the "especially Islam" point below?
lowing wrote:
Religion especially Islam does not encourage outside the box thinking therefore can not take credit for any discoveries under its rule.
Not true - they did bomb American civilians. Using bombs on balloons. Not very successfully though.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'd say they were about equal, still wrong though.
OTOH The Japanese never bombed US civilians whereas the Germans did.