Pages: 1 2

 

2010-12-28 07:22:37
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina
Unnerved by shaky, debt-ridden countries and bailout packages worth billions, the majority of Germans want the mark back. In a survey conducted in early December by the polling firm Infratest dimap, 57 percent of respondents agreed with the statement that Germany would have been better off keeping the mark than introducing the euro. Germans, it seems, are gripped once again by their historic fear of inflation: According to the Forschungsgruppe Wahlen polling institute, 82 percent of the population is worried about the stability of their currency.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger … 80,00.html

Factually, I don't see how it's possible to argue that Germany is better off with the Euro.  With Germany, France, and the U.K. in a position where they must prop up bankrupt economies like that of Greece, surely Germany and France are better off returning to their own currencies.

America has had its own disasters with bailing out banks and automakers, and the ridiculous phrase of "too big to fail" has been thrown around a lot.  Now, it seems as though Europe is having to bail out countries that are too irresponsible to run things properly.

Why not let Greece fall?  Why not return to the mark and the franc?
2010-12-28 07:31:27
cl4u53w1t2
Salon-Bolschewist
+269|6475|Kakanien
1. returning to the mark is never gonna happen
2. germany benefits massively from having the euro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2oh3h3DvY0
2010-12-28 07:32:12
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England
I'm surprised a guy with a degree in economics doesn't see the benefits of having a single common currency...

The answer isn't abandoning the Euro, it's simply a matter of the profligate nations under its umbrella adopting reasonable economic policies. They can no longer devalue their way out of debt and need to learn to adapt. Those devaluations did more to harm countries like Germany than these bailouts ever will.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-12-28 07:33:43)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 07:38:28
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

I'm surprised a guy with a degree in economics doesn't see the benefits of having a single common currency...

The answer isn't abandoning the Euro, it's simply a matter of the profligate nations under its umbrella adopting reasonable economic policies. They can no longer devalue their way out of debt and need to learn to adapt. Those devaluations did more to harm countries like Germany than these bailouts ever will.
Having a sovereign currency is nearly as important as having a sovereign government.  The more you tie your currency to the policies of other governments, the less control you have over your own country's economic growth.

So while there may be certain benefits to a common currency, there are far greater benefits to having your own currency -- especially when you currently share a currency with irresponsible nations like Greece.

The only way Greece will learn is to let them fall, just like the only way banks or automakers will.
2010-12-28 07:39:39
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

cl4u53w1t2 wrote:

2. germany benefits massively from having the euro
How so?
2010-12-28 08:25:41
Ticia
Member
+73|5337
Aww...Germany is acting like an outsider reading the tabloids again? The EU crisis started in 1957

Greece is not taking the money and running with it. They are like all of us piggies responding to the crisis with the right corrective financial measures and implementing unparalleled structural reforms.

The economies of the eurozone are so interrelated that the need for financial supervisory and regulatory authorities is obvious, if any of the members have a problem with this then tough luck.
2010-12-28 08:28:47
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I'm surprised a guy with a degree in economics doesn't see the benefits of having a single common currency...

The answer isn't abandoning the Euro, it's simply a matter of the profligate nations under its umbrella adopting reasonable economic policies. They can no longer devalue their way out of debt and need to learn to adapt. Those devaluations did more to harm countries like Germany than these bailouts ever will.
Having a sovereign currency is nearly as important as having a sovereign government.  The more you tie your currency to the policies of other governments, the less control you have over your own country's economic growth.

So while there may be certain benefits to a common currency, there are far greater benefits to having your own currency -- especially when you currently share a currency with irresponsible nations like Greece.

The only way Greece will learn is to let them fall, just like the only way banks or automakers will.
Umm, not really. Having a single unified currency is no different than having a commodity standard.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 08:34:23
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5038|Massachusetts, USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I'm surprised a guy with a degree in economics doesn't see the benefits of having a single common currency...

The answer isn't abandoning the Euro, it's simply a matter of the profligate nations under its umbrella adopting reasonable economic policies. They can no longer devalue their way out of debt and need to learn to adapt. Those devaluations did more to harm countries like Germany than these bailouts ever will.
Having a sovereign currency is nearly as important as having a sovereign government.  The more you tie your currency to the policies of other governments, the less control you have over your own country's economic growth.

So while there may be certain benefits to a common currency, there are far greater benefits to having your own currency -- especially when you currently share a currency with irresponsible nations like Greece.

The only way Greece will learn is to let them fall, just like the only way banks or automakers will.
Umm, not really. Having a single unified currency is no different than having a commodity standard.
I wouldn't argue with galt on this.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2010-12-28 08:37:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I'm surprised a guy with a degree in economics doesn't see the benefits of having a single common currency...

The answer isn't abandoning the Euro, it's simply a matter of the profligate nations under its umbrella adopting reasonable economic policies. They can no longer devalue their way out of debt and need to learn to adapt. Those devaluations did more to harm countries like Germany than these bailouts ever will.
Having a sovereign currency is nearly as important as having a sovereign government.  The more you tie your currency to the policies of other governments, the less control you have over your own country's economic growth.

So while there may be certain benefits to a common currency, there are far greater benefits to having your own currency -- especially when you currently share a currency with irresponsible nations like Greece.

The only way Greece will learn is to let them fall, just like the only way banks or automakers will.
Umm, not really. Having a single unified currency is no different than having a commodity standard.
Well, there's a good reason we moved away from those....
2010-12-28 08:38:41
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Having a sovereign currency is nearly as important as having a sovereign government.  The more you tie your currency to the policies of other governments, the less control you have over your own country's economic growth.

So while there may be certain benefits to a common currency, there are far greater benefits to having your own currency -- especially when you currently share a currency with irresponsible nations like Greece.

The only way Greece will learn is to let them fall, just like the only way banks or automakers will.
Umm, not really. Having a single unified currency is no different than having a commodity standard.
Well, there's a good reason we moved away from those....
Yes, because countries wanted the ability to devalue their way out of debt. That's not the correct answer. The correct answer is not racking up the debt in the first place.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 08:43:09
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Umm, not really. Having a single unified currency is no different than having a commodity standard.
Well, there's a good reason we moved away from those....
Yes, because countries wanted the ability to devalue their way out of debt. That's not the correct answer. The correct answer is not racking up the debt in the first place.
Well, that and the fact that not everyone had large gold reserves.  Japan didn't fit well with that design.

Ideally, a commodity currency is nice, but it's hard to set up.

A universal currency would be a nightmare, because of differences in governmental structures and corruption.
2010-12-28 08:45:00
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, there's a good reason we moved away from those....
Yes, because countries wanted the ability to devalue their way out of debt. That's not the correct answer. The correct answer is not racking up the debt in the first place.
Well, that and the fact that not everyone had large gold reserves.  Japan didn't fit well with that design.

Ideally, a commodity currency is nice, but it's hard to set up.

A universal currency would be a nightmare, because of differences in governmental structures and corruption.
No, a universal currency would not be a nightmare. Government structure and corruption is irrelevant.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 08:46:51
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Yes, because countries wanted the ability to devalue their way out of debt. That's not the correct answer. The correct answer is not racking up the debt in the first place.
Well, that and the fact that not everyone had large gold reserves.  Japan didn't fit well with that design.

Ideally, a commodity currency is nice, but it's hard to set up.

A universal currency would be a nightmare, because of differences in governmental structures and corruption.
No, a universal currency would not be a nightmare. Government structure and corruption is irrelevant.
How do you propose supporting a universal currency?  Would there be any regional governmental banks similar to our Federal Reserve?
2010-12-28 08:47:47
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6718

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, that and the fact that not everyone had large gold reserves.  Japan didn't fit well with that design.

Ideally, a commodity currency is nice, but it's hard to set up.

A universal currency would be a nightmare, because of differences in governmental structures and corruption.
No, a universal currency would not be a nightmare. Government structure and corruption is irrelevant.
How do you propose supporting a universal currency?  Would there be any regional governmental banks similar to our Federal Reserve?
World Bank lelz.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-12-28 08:49:46
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5038|Massachusetts, USA

Cybargs wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


No, a universal currency would not be a nightmare. Government structure and corruption is irrelevant.
How do you propose supporting a universal currency?  Would there be any regional governmental banks similar to our Federal Reserve?
World Bank lelz.
You should be the head of it, since you are both jewish AND asian.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2010-12-28 08:52:23
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, that and the fact that not everyone had large gold reserves.  Japan didn't fit well with that design.

Ideally, a commodity currency is nice, but it's hard to set up.

A universal currency would be a nightmare, because of differences in governmental structures and corruption.
No, a universal currency would not be a nightmare. Government structure and corruption is irrelevant.
How do you propose supporting a universal currency?  Would there be any regional governmental banks similar to our Federal Reserve?
Why would there need to be? You would just place X amount of dollars or rubles or whatever else in the world and call it a day. The fed doesn't control the money supply anyway. Money is created via the fractional reserve system. Sure the Fed can dictate how much a bank holds in reserve and thus has some form of control, but if you think the Fed knows at any one time how much money is in the system you're nuts. Fractional reserve isn't perfect but it's better than a room full of economists guessing how much money is required to be in the system at any one time.

Hell, tie it to gold and let gold production dictate the amount of money in the system and/or inflation rates.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-12-28 08:53:13)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 08:54:53
cl4u53w1t2
Salon-Bolschewist
+269|6475|Kakanien

Turquoise wrote:

cl4u53w1t2 wrote:

2. germany benefits massively from having the euro
How so?
- german economy does not have to react to devaluation and revaluation of european countries' currencies

- germany's neighbouring countries grew larger because of the euro, hence they were able to buy more german products

- no more financial transaction costs for companies

- better protection against currency speculators

- politico-economical weigth of the euro-zone in a globalized world

- symbol of european identity and integration

etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2oh3h3DvY0
2010-12-28 08:55:29
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5261|foggy bottom
youre about a good 8 months behind on this one
Tu Stultus Es
2010-12-28 08:57:11
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

cl4u53w1t2 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

cl4u53w1t2 wrote:

2. germany benefits massively from having the euro
How so?
- german economy does not have to react to devaluation and revaluation of european countries' currencies

- germany's neighbouring countries grew larger because of the euro, hence they were able to buy more german products

- no more financial transaction costs for companies

- better protection against currency speculators

- politico-economical weigth of the euro-zone in a globalized world

- symbol of european identity and integration

etc.
Except for the last one, these are all precisely the reasons why you would want a unified currency.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 08:57:25
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

No, a universal currency would not be a nightmare. Government structure and corruption is irrelevant.
How do you propose supporting a universal currency?  Would there be any regional governmental banks similar to our Federal Reserve?
Why would there need to be? You would just place X amount of dollars or rubles or whatever else in the world and call it a day. The fed doesn't control the money supply anyway. Money is created via the fractional reserve system. Sure the Fed can dictate how much a bank holds in reserve and thus has some form of control, but if you think the Fed knows at any one time how much money is in the system you're nuts. Fractional reserve isn't perfect but it's better than a room full of economists guessing how much money is required to be in the system at any one time.

Hell, tie it to gold and let gold production dictate the amount of money in the system and/or inflation rates.
Again, you have to have a decent amount of gold reserves in each participating country for the system to work properly.  There would have to be a massive redistribution of gold for that to even be worth considering.

Yes, the Fed Reserve system doesn't control the money supply, but it does play a role that has to be provided for any modern currency.  If you get rid of the Fed Reserve, it has to be replaced by something.

The Euro even has a similar system in place that is partially affected by local governments.

My general point here is that any universal currency you set up will be vulnerable to disparities in the quality of governance.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-12-28 08:58:36)

2010-12-28 09:00:25
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


How do you propose supporting a universal currency?  Would there be any regional governmental banks similar to our Federal Reserve?
Why would there need to be? You would just place X amount of dollars or rubles or whatever else in the world and call it a day. The fed doesn't control the money supply anyway. Money is created via the fractional reserve system. Sure the Fed can dictate how much a bank holds in reserve and thus has some form of control, but if you think the Fed knows at any one time how much money is in the system you're nuts. Fractional reserve isn't perfect but it's better than a room full of economists guessing how much money is required to be in the system at any one time.

Hell, tie it to gold and let gold production dictate the amount of money in the system and/or inflation rates.
Again, you have to have a decent amount of gold reserves in each participating country for the system to work properly.  There would have to be a massive redistribution of gold for that to even be worth considering.

Yes, the Fed Reserve system doesn't control the money supply, but it does play a role that has to be provided for any modern currency.  If you get rid of the Fed Reserve, it has to be replaced by something.

The Euro even has a similar system in place that is partially affected by local governments.

My general point here is that any universal currency you set up will be vulnerable to disparities in the quality of governance.
No it won't. The currency system would reside outside of political systems. Our own Fed is structured so it's not supposed to be affected by national politics. Doesn't always work out that way but the Fed does have a remarkable amount of autonomy. Any global system would require the same.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 09:01:03
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina
Are you an advocate of a world government?
2010-12-28 09:02:17
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

Are you an advocate of a world government?
Again, irrelevant. Politics and political systems have nothing to do with having a universal currency.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-28 09:03:15
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Are you an advocate of a world government?
Again, irrelevant. Politics and political systems have nothing to do with having a universal currency.
You said it needed autonomy.   That requires having some sort of global authority in charge.
2010-12-28 09:07:25
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Are you an advocate of a world government?
Again, irrelevant. Politics and political systems have nothing to do with having a universal currency.
You said it needed autonomy.   That requires having some sort of global authority in charge.
Sure, but it doesn't require a universal government. We already have the World Bank and other NGOs set up. All they would have to do is print money to replace current currencies. Voila! Done. No more currency wars, no more devaluations, no more currency pegging, no more currency trading. Simple. Straightforward. Effective.

It's the only way free trade will really work.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-12-28 09:07:48)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

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