Mauritania and Rape

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Mauritania and Rape

2010-12-23 08:23:11

#101

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6747

EVieira wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
A lot of religions have some pretty fucked up laws and ideas, but so far, Islam seems to be the only one that can be interpreted in such a way that rape is the fault of the victim rather than of the rapist.
The problem is not islam itself, but mixing religion with goverment. If our laws were based on the Bible we'd be stoning people to death and blood transfusions would be illegal. On the other hand, the death penalty wouldn't exit either.

this is more a problem of the PROCESS of scriptural and judicial interpretation- two disciplines that have a huge amount of scholarly research and theory surrounding them. there's nothing particularly wrong with developing a moral or ethic philosophy from theological/religious sources- it's the 'literality' of interpretation that creates problems. even the most innocuous edicts, laws and statements can be problematic if the judge or law-maker/enabler chooses an originalist mode of interpretation.

as a previous law student and literature student now, im fascinated by concepts of interpretation theory and textual literality- with inter-textual and contextual references. it's interesting how we 'choose' to read things from the past in order to engender our own contemporary knowledge-- both consciously and subconsciously.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-12-23 08:24:01

#102

Ticia: Member; +73|5611

Media talks a lot about the lack of women's rights but the truth is most Muslim women agree with those laws, in fact they'll say they exist to protect them.

You see the same in ultra-conservative environments, where women are the perfect mothers and housewives and are content to take the role of a second class citizen. I'm sure rape victims are probably treated in a very similar way.

All this can not be seen in the same manner we approach what exists within the realm of logic.

The only ones we should worry about are the ones who want out.

2010-12-23 08:35:02

#103

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6681|North Carolina

Ticia wrote:
Media talks a lot about the lack of women's rights but the truth is most Muslim women agree with those laws, in fact they'll say they exist to protect them.

You see the same in ultra-conservative environments, where women are the perfect mothers and housewives and are content to take the role of a second class citizen. I'm sure rape victims are probably treated in a very similar way.

All this can not be seen in the same manner we approach what exists within the realm of logic.

The only ones we should worry about are the ones who want out.

Good points, but on the flipside... why should we worry about the ones who want out? In all likelihood, this particular victim will continue on with her life in Mauritania. She might continue to speak out against her government, but ultimately, the only way her life actually could improve is to move somewhere else.

If anything, it just shows that morality is relative as are rights. All that matters is whether or not you can convince people to accept something.

2010-12-23 08:38:20

#104

Ticia: Member; +73|5611

Turquoise wrote:
Ticia wrote:
Media talks a lot about the lack of women's rights but the truth is most Muslim women agree with those laws, in fact they'll say they exist to protect them.

You see the same in ultra-conservative environments, where women are the perfect mothers and housewives and are content to take the role of a second class citizen. I'm sure rape victims are probably treated in a very similar way.

All this can not be seen in the same manner we approach what exists within the realm of logic.

The only ones we should worry about are the ones who want out.
Good points, but on the flipside... why should we worry about the ones who want out? In all likelihood, this particular victim will continue on with her life in Mauritania. She might continue to speak out against her government, but ultimately, the only way her life actually could improve is to move somewhere else.

If anything, it just shows that morality is relative as are rights. All that matters is whether or not you can convince people to accept something.

That's what I mean, help her move out if she wants to.

2010-12-23 09:31:59

#105

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6773

they do that here with polygamist women.

2010-12-23 10:55:57

#106

EVieira: Member; +105|6754|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Ticia wrote:
Media talks a lot about the lack of women's rights but the truth is most Muslim women agree with those laws, in fact they'll say they exist to protect them.

You see the same in ultra-conservative environments, where women are the perfect mothers and housewives and are content to take the role of a second class citizen. I'm sure rape victims are probably treated in a very similar way.

All this can not be seen in the same manner we approach what exists within the realm of logic.

The only ones we should worry about are the ones who want out.

I don't agree with you Ticia. If they are confortable in their roles, even if it makes them 2nd class citizens, thats for them to choose, but that dosen't mean they can be raped at will by anyone. They can still be second class citizens if the laws starts punishing rapists.

We do have to approach this within the realm of logic and condemn such barbaric laws. Just as the stoning of Sakineh in Iran created a large response of the international comunity.

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

2010-12-23 11:01:30

#107

EVieira: Member; +105|6754|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Ticia wrote:
That's what I mean, help her move out if she wants to.

You make it sound as if it were easy to simply leave behind all family, friends, home, and just move somewhere else, somewhere where you know noone, probably don't speak the language and will also most likely have to live off some sort of welfare since you have no employable skills.

And all that, as if the problem was her, and not the completely irational laws of her country.

We should help those who have the courage to take this step and move out, but that dosen't solve the problem. We need to pressure such places to evolve their laws, and give voice those who want change.

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

2010-12-23 11:07:08

#108

EVieira: Member; +105|6754|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Uzique wrote:
EVieira wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
A lot of religions have some pretty fucked up laws and ideas, but so far, Islam seems to be the only one that can be interpreted in such a way that rape is the fault of the victim rather than of the rapist.
The problem is not islam itself, but mixing religion with goverment. If our laws were based on the Bible we'd be stoning people to death and blood transfusions would be illegal. On the other hand, the death penalty wouldn't exit either.
this is more a problem of the PROCESS of scriptural and judicial interpretation- two disciplines that have a huge amount of scholarly research and theory surrounding them. there's nothing particularly wrong with developing a moral or ethic philosophy from theological/religious sources- it's the 'literality' of interpretation that creates problems. even the most innocuous edicts, laws and statements can be problematic if the judge or law-maker/enabler chooses an originalist mode of interpretation.

as a previous law student and literature student now, im fascinated by concepts of interpretation theory and textual literality- with inter-textual and contextual references. it's interesting how we 'choose' to read things from the past in order to engender our own contemporary knowledge-- both consciously and subconsciously.

You're right Uzique, its also not the mixing of religion and goverment, but how we interpret the sources for our morals and ethics. The fact is most of our most basic laws are based on the bible, (Do not kill, to not steal, etc.). We just don't take them so literaly as they do in places where the Sharia is the law.

Excelent post.

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

2010-12-23 11:26:51

#109

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7051|Moscow, Russia

EVieira wrote:
The fact is most of our most basic laws are based on the bible, (Do not kill, to not steal, etc.).

wat? "do not kill"-laws are based on... bible?

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2010-12-23 11:32:41

#110

EVieira: Member; +105|6754|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Shahter wrote:
EVieira wrote:
The fact is most of our most basic laws are based on the bible, (Do not kill, to not steal, etc.).
wat? "do not kill"-laws are based on... bible?

Many of the basic moral concepts of today came from religious sources. A very big part of our society, not just our laws, was and still is shaped by religion.

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

2010-12-23 11:40:41

#111

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7051|Moscow, Russia

EVieira wrote:
Shahter wrote:
EVieira wrote:
The fact is most of our most basic laws are based on the bible, (Do not kill, to not steal, etc.).
wat? "do not kill"-laws are based on... bible?
Many of the basic moral concepts of today came from religious sources. A very big part of our society, not just our laws, was and still is shaped by religion.

it is totally the other way around. religion never really produced anything new - it, just like any other propagandist and information manipulation tool, simply assumes the appropriate forms based on circumstances.

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2010-12-23 12:36:28

#112

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6681|North Carolina

Shahter wrote:
EVieira wrote:
Shahter wrote:

wat? "do not kill"-laws are based on... bible?
Many of the basic moral concepts of today came from religious sources. A very big part of our society, not just our laws, was and still is shaped by religion.
it is totally the other way around. religion never really produced anything new - it, just like any other propagandist and information manipulation tool, simply assumes the appropriate forms based on circumstances.

More or less....

2010-12-23 12:37:39

#113

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6681|North Carolina

EVieira wrote:
Ticia wrote:
Media talks a lot about the lack of women's rights but the truth is most Muslim women agree with those laws, in fact they'll say they exist to protect them.

You see the same in ultra-conservative environments, where women are the perfect mothers and housewives and are content to take the role of a second class citizen. I'm sure rape victims are probably treated in a very similar way.

All this can not be seen in the same manner we approach what exists within the realm of logic.

The only ones we should worry about are the ones who want out.
I don't agree with you Ticia. If they are confortable in their roles, even if it makes them 2nd class citizens, thats for them to choose, but that dosen't mean they can be raped at will by anyone. They can still be second class citizens if the laws starts punishing rapists.

We do have to approach this within the realm of logic and condemn such barbaric laws. Just as the stoning of Sakineh in Iran created a large response of the international comunity.

It's all relative though, right? It might be barbaric by our standards, but it might not be by theirs.

2010-12-23 13:47:48

#114

Hunter/Jumper: Member; +117|6630

Uzique wrote:
hahahaha hunter/jumper, yes, i went to a christian school.

amazing character analysis, there!

LOL

marine all you do in D&ST is come into threads to snipe with one-word comments when the main debate is already finished. if i go build a snowman for 15 minutes will you get a real fucking hobby? preferably one involving the development of 'thinking for yourself'? such a sheep all your life

Wouldn't you qualify as a herd animal more so than I, being that you share the same point of view here as so many other posters. Where as I am almost alone in my point of view ?

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-12-23 13:48:38)

2010-12-23 13:51:16

#115

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6773

Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Where as I am almost alone in my point of view ?

you*re not alone- you share rush limbaugh's, glen beck's, the local fox news station's, sean hannity's - hell, you*re the poster boy for what's wrong with being a so called 'conservative' . . .

2010-12-23 14:04:14

#116

Hunter/Jumper: Member; +117|6630

burnzz wrote:
Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Where as I am almost alone in my point of view ?
you*re not alone- you share rush limbaugh's, glen beck's, the local fox news station's, sean hannity's - hell, you*re the poster boy for what's wrong with being a so called 'conservative' . . .

We were talking about D&ST but Try again, Not even close. Perhaps it's a template you try and apply to things that confuse you. Last month your were all charged up hoping I was female, To me you just seem a little lost. Weren't you the kid who ran away at 17 or is that cybargs ?

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-12-23 14:05:02)

2010-12-23 14:04:16

#117

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6747

Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Uzique wrote:
hahahaha hunter/jumper, yes, i went to a christian school.

amazing character analysis, there!

LOL

marine all you do in D&ST is come into threads to snipe with one-word comments when the main debate is already finished. if i go build a snowman for 15 minutes will you get a real fucking hobby? preferably one involving the development of 'thinking for yourself'? such a sheep all your life
Wouldn't you qualify as a herd animal more so than I, being that you share the same point of view here as so many other posters. Where as I am almost alone in my point of view ?

numbers have nothing to do with being a 'herd animal',

it's about the process of reasoning and rational thought that you employ to come to your own, personally-developed, independent stance.

the number of people that share that view has little to nothing to do with whether you're an independent thinker or a crowd follower.

it's the process, not the result

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-12-23 14:07:39

#118

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6681|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:
numbers have nothing to do with being a 'herd animal',

it's about the process of reasoning and rational thought that you employ to come to your own, personally-developed, independent stance.

It's somewhat difficult to determine if someone is a sheep or not unless you know him/her in real life.

2010-12-23 14:09:14

#119

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6773

Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Last month your were all charged up hoping I was female, To me you just seem a little lost.

you*re not a female, you are a female dog in heat. To me you just seem like a little bitch.

2010-12-23 14:11:43

#120

Hunter/Jumper: Member; +117|6630

Uzique wrote:
Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Uzique wrote:
hahahaha hunter/jumper, yes, i went to a christian school.

amazing character analysis, there!

LOL

marine all you do in D&ST is come into threads to snipe with one-word comments when the main debate is already finished. if i go build a snowman for 15 minutes will you get a real fucking hobby? preferably one involving the development of 'thinking for yourself'? such a sheep all your life
Wouldn't you qualify as a herd animal more so than I, being that you share the same point of view here as so many other posters. Where as I am almost alone in my point of view ?
numbers have nothing to do with being a 'herd animal',

it's about the process of reasoning and rational thought that you employ to come to your own, personally-developed, independent stance.

the number of people that share that view has little to nothing to do with whether you're an independent thinker or a crowd follower.

it's the process, not the result

You used the term "sheep" with USMarine. I asked who qualifies more. The one who is deep in the pack or the one who stands alone after all we cant really tell if you used "the process of reasoning and rational thought" or you just feel more comfortable in a crowd, Can we ? Roll your Eyes all you want.

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-12-23 14:12:37)

2010-12-23 14:13:24

#121

Hunter/Jumper: Member; +117|6630

a poodle nips at his heels

burnzz wrote:
Hunter/Jumper wrote:
Last month your were all charged up hoping I was female, To me you just seem a little lost.
you*re not a female, you are a female dog in heat. To me you just seem like a little bitch.

Big mouth = Little Jimmy

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-12-23 14:14:18)

2010-12-23 14:15:34

#122

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6773

get off my heel, hunter/munter

2010-12-23 14:18:19

#123

Hunter/Jumper: Member; +117|6630

burnzz wrote:
get off my heel, hunter/munter

who's that guy in your sig ?

2010-12-23 14:26:06

#124

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6747

jesus christ it's like a kindergarten

99% of you D&ST motherfuckers could not say an intelligent thing if you had a gun put to your head and were forced to

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-12-23 14:33:51

#125

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6681|North Carolina

Who would the 1% consist of? Only you?

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EVieira wrote:

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