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2010-12-22 17:27:09
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

UnkleRukus wrote:

No, you still aren't getting it.

We know the source texts don't mention redheads or moles, but the people who get the shit end of the stick weren't able to read. So the people reading the bible/Quran have free range to add and remove stuff at will.

I have no idea what the Quran says, I can't read arabic I doubt you can to. So how do you know what it says on sex before marrige?
They do have Qurans translated into English.

That's beside the point though...   Literacy is pretty high even in some of the countries that still punish rape victims -- like Iran.  Iran's current literacy rate is 76%.  That's obviously not as good as here, but it's still good enough that the majority should know what the Quran actually says or can find out easily.

The same goes for Saudi Arabia -- which has a literacy rate of 85%.
2010-12-22 17:29:35
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
since when have literacy rates ever had anything to do with theological knowledge and scriptural interpretation

you're even assuming that the native arabic tongues and dialects in these countries are the same form of arabic in the original scripture

you're also completely glossing over the human and SOCIAL process of translation, assuming it has no bearing whatsoever on the text

very moronic all round, really. say something smart.

Last edited by Uzique (2010-12-22 17:29:50)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-22 17:29:50
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6629

UnkleRukus wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Shahter wrote:

there was a time when christianity was being interpreted in such a way that if, say, a woman was redhead and had any kind of mole anywhere on her body it was deemed necessary to torture her until she confessed she was a witch and all that stuff, and after she did she'd be burned at stake to cleance her soul of sin.

religion does not make anybody evil - stupidity does.
Ah...  not surprising...   although, I don't believe there's any part of the Bible that references redheads or moles.
Doesn't matter, look at the Salem Witch Trials. All it took was some educated people to manipulate the uneducated.

If you can't read, how do you interpret the bible, someone else has to read it to you and they can add in all their own facts and stuff. Its sort of like half the threads in D+ST.
Are you reaching back more than 400 years so you can compare the two religions on a level playing field ?

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-12-22 17:31:26)

2010-12-22 17:30:12
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Turq, your logic here is about as sound as the people advocating death for rape victims based on Sharia law.
How so?  Ultimately, we have to look at the source texts.  If they don't specify what sex outside of marriage fully entails, then it's easy to see how governments abuse the religion they claim to follow.

However, seeing as how a large portion of the Islamic World is theocratic in nature, these abuses are undeniably connected to Islam as an ideology.
2010-12-22 17:30:55
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

since when have literacy rates ever had anything to do with theological knowledge and scriptural interpretation

you're even assuming that the native arabic tongues and dialects in these countries are the same form of arabic in the original scripture

you're also completely glossing over the human and SOCIAL process of translation, assuming it has no bearing whatsoever on the text

very moronic all round, really. say something smart.
So are you saying that you have to know Aramaic to know what the Bible actually says?
2010-12-22 17:31:34
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
originally, yes.

did you just skip centuries of christian scholaticism and interpretation theory?

i sincerely hope not.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-22 17:32:57
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

originally, yes.

did you just skip centuries of christian scholaticism and interpretation theory?

i sincerely hope not.
If you're saying that Islam still needs to evolve, then I agree.
2010-12-22 17:34:38
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
i'm not saying that at all you absolute fucking moron

i'm talking about the process of translating texts - textuality, intertextuality, contextuality

jesus fucking christ i just physically facepalmed myself
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-22 17:35:29
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

i'm not saying that at all you absolute fucking moron

i'm talking about the process of translating texts - textuality, intertextuality, contextuality

jesus fucking christ i just physically facepalmed myself
Must've touched a nerve, I guess.
2010-12-22 17:38:41
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
oh yeah you really pissed the muslim off in me

actually nah wait, i'm just laughing at how a supposedly educated adult man cannot understand the implications of the process of scriptural translation. D&ST is such a fucking joke when you make topics like this, and even more laughably so when you conduct yourself in this sub-forum as a 'rational, intelligent' poster... when you so clearly lack some fundamental things. translations always distort the original, true meaning. even to verbally paraphrase innocuously loses cogent meaning and concise truth. undertaking a written lingual or revisional translation has all sorts of social, cultural and political ulterior motives. to FULLY understand the bible, quran or torah you do need to be able to read the original scripture. that's just the simple fact of the matter.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-22 17:42:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

translations always distort the original, true meaning. even to verbally paraphrase innocuously loses cogent meaning and concise truth. undertaking a written lingual or revisional translation has all sorts of social, cultural and political ulterior motives. to FULLY understand the bible, quran or torah you do need to be able to read the original scripture. that's just the simple fact of the matter.
Then, the question remains...   Why do people even bother believing in it?  If it's so arbitrarily decided by interpretation, then it really is meaningless because of a lack of objective truth.

For a forum you consider to be a joke, you keep coming back for more.  Is the temptation to condescend toward anyone and everyone too great to resist?
2010-12-22 17:46:06
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5311|Massachusetts, USA

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Ah...  not surprising...   although, I don't believe there's any part of the Bible that references redheads or moles.
Doesn't matter, look at the Salem Witch Trials. All it took was some educated people to manipulate the uneducated.

If you can't read, how do you interpret the bible, someone else has to read it to you and they can add in all their own facts and stuff. Its sort of like half the threads in D+ST.
Are you reaching back more than 400 years so you can compare the two religions on a level playing field ?
Well if you think about it, some of the countries that are run by relgion really don't have too many people who can read. So yeah, I guess I am. If you have a problem just say it, I won't be offended.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2010-12-22 17:46:34
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5311|Massachusetts, USA

Turquoise wrote:

Uzique wrote:

translations always distort the original, true meaning. even to verbally paraphrase innocuously loses cogent meaning and concise truth. undertaking a written lingual or revisional translation has all sorts of social, cultural and political ulterior motives. to FULLY understand the bible, quran or torah you do need to be able to read the original scripture. that's just the simple fact of the matter.
Then, the question remains...   Why do people even bother believing in it?  If it's so arbitrarily decided by interpretation, then it really is meaningless because of a lack of objective truth.

For a forum you consider to be a joke, you keep coming back for more.  Is the temptation to condescend toward anyone and everyone too great to resist?
You still haven't figured it out yet have you.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2010-12-22 17:48:35
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
i don't know why people believe in it and have such literal faith in these ancient texts, heavily doctored and edited and redacted over the centuries by various 'prophets', 'saints' and 'scholars'. maybe consider asking a person with a faith in the first place? i'm an agnostic and have no faith in organised religion, nor its codes and texts, for that matter.

i don't consider this forum a joke - i consider your contributions to be laughable. how old are you? how much do you read? how are you still so infantile and narrowminded towards certain topics? for a person with an apparently applaudable sense of ideological pragmatism and hybridism, having read SO widely and fused together this wonderfully adaptable self-philosophy... from where then does this islamophobic retardation spring? irrational fears and xenophobic urges often come from a gap in knowledge and understanding. perhaps get back to the airport departure lounge? maybe not an american one, though. perhaps even go to marxist europe!
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-22 17:49:00
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

UnkleRukus wrote:

You still haven't figured it out yet have you.
By all means...  elaborate.
2010-12-22 17:50:26
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5311|Massachusetts, USA

Turquoise wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:

You still haven't figured it out yet have you.
By all means...  elaborate.
We've already elaborated several goddamn times.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2010-12-22 17:55:07
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

i don't consider this forum a joke - i consider your contributions to be laughable. how old are you? how much do you read? how are you still so infantile and narrowminded towards certain topics? for a person with an apparently applaudable sense of ideological pragmatism and hybridism, having read SO widely and fused together this wonderfully adaptable self-philosophy... from where then does this islamophobic retardation spring? irrational fears and xenophobic urges often come from a gap in knowledge and understanding. perhaps get back to the airport departure lounge? maybe not an american one, though. perhaps even go to marxist europe!
Islamophobia...   Well, I saw that one coming.  Everytime someone criticizes Islam, that one has to come out.

Well, let's see...  between 9/11, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Israeli-Palestine mess, Pakistan's mess, Muslims freaking out over cartoons, the way much of the Islamic World treats women and gays...   Yeah, I'd say I have a rather large amount of things to hate Islam for.

I hate all religion actually.  I just hate Islam a little more than the other major religions though.  Sorry if that offends an agnostic....
2010-12-22 17:56:27
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5311|Massachusetts, USA

Turquoise wrote:

Uzique wrote:

i don't consider this forum a joke - i consider your contributions to be laughable. how old are you? how much do you read? how are you still so infantile and narrowminded towards certain topics? for a person with an apparently applaudable sense of ideological pragmatism and hybridism, having read SO widely and fused together this wonderfully adaptable self-philosophy... from where then does this islamophobic retardation spring? irrational fears and xenophobic urges often come from a gap in knowledge and understanding. perhaps get back to the airport departure lounge? maybe not an american one, though. perhaps even go to marxist europe!
Islamophobia...   Well, I saw that one coming.  Everytime someone criticizes Islam, that one has to come out.

Well, let's see...  between 9/11, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Israeli-Palestine mess, Pakistan's mess, Muslims freaking out over cartoons, the way much of the Islamic World treats women and gays...   Yeah, I'd say I have a rather large amount of things to hate Islam for.

I hate all religion actually.  I just hate Islam a little more than the other major religions though.  Sorry if that offends an agnostic....
Just when we thought you couldn't get any dumber.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2010-12-22 17:56:46
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

UnkleRukus wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:

You still haven't figured it out yet have you.
By all means...  elaborate.
We've already elaborated several goddamn times.
I didn't realize a difference of opinion can get you so riled up.
2010-12-22 17:57:42
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
im offended by your stupidity, not because as an agnostic i revile your distaste for islam.

the fact you cannot make that distinction just furthers my hatred for your evident idiocy.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-22 18:00:16
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

im offended by your stupidity, not because as an agnostic i revile your distaste for islam.

the fact you cannot make that distinction just furthers my hatred for your evident idiocy.
Such anger from both you and Ruckus.   I really don't know how either of you took this as personally as you have.
2010-12-22 18:07:13
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
i'm not taking it 'personally'. where are you getting it from that i'm taking anything 'personally'?

what a childish retort. is this how you're construing an argument now?

i'm exasperated at the content of this thread; im not emotionally wounded by it.

why are you so poor at basic distinction? agnostic->islamic fanatic, frustrated reader->wounded victim... oh my.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-22 18:14:36
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina
I'm just saying...   I've kept a cooler head in this thread than either of you.   I've made my arguments, but for some reason, yours have degenerated into ad hominem bits rather than elaborating on what you really mean.

I think it's fair to judge Islam by the theocratic governments that often accompany Muslim-majority societies.  Even in supposedly secular governments, like that of Turkey, they have their own religious hangups.

Granted, I'm not saying that Christian societies are free from their own insanities, but the ones in the Islamic World seem much more extreme.   Also, there seems to be a pattern of Muslim immigrants or children of Muslim immigrants that snap and do crazy things like the recent Stockholm bombing.   That guy was partially angered by a cartoon.

It's really hard not to have a negative view on Islam as that continues to happen.
2010-12-22 18:20:43
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,981|6907|949

Muslims at-large (ie. the ones that are rational) don't view any government currently in existence as a Muslim Caliphate.  That is, those supposedly "theocratic governments" that you use as evidence of how shitty and retarded Islam is aren't seen by the practitioners as reflective of an Islamic government.
2010-12-22 18:21:58
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
it's a matter of information balkanization. you have a bad view of islam and receive so many bad anecdotes and news-stories about islam because it's the media-information agenda. it's a meta-narrative. if you looked throughout the entire christian world, especially at the similarly undeveloped countries in the far-east and so on that are majority-catholic, you could find just as many 'human rights horrors' and 'moral crimes'. the fact is that newspapers and news-websites have limited column inches and a specific economic imperative to SELL their shit... so we get long, thematic concerns with 'islam as the enemy' or 'muslims as barbarians'... because, since 9/11, it sells like hotcakes to morons like you that swallow it wholesale.

'manufacturing consent'.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/

 

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